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Author Topic: How Ohio was Won  (Read 17015 times)

lucey

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How Ohio was Won
« on: November 03, 2004, 02:04:41 am »

I'll understand if you kill this George, but I need to tell what has happened in Ohio, and in America.  And what this means for everyone.


HOW OHIO WAS WON ... AND WHAT IT MEANS FOR THE WORLD              


"Values" has become the central theme of Karl Rove and GWBush.  

This word has been usurped in a 30 year smear campaign against science, democracy, spirituality and good people everywhere with lives that diverge from the Country Club and the boardroom.

And in this most historic election, both for 4 more years of Bush Inc. and for a 20 year reign of Christian-based Supreme Court rulings, "values" and more specifically the alignment of our government with Christianity has won it for Bush in Ohio and the middle of the country generally.

In some of the counties in Ohio that have lost the MOST Jobs Bush won. Why? "Values"

In the capital Columbus, Cleveland, Dayton, Youngstown and Akron ... all the largest Cities (except Cincinnati which is almost fascist it's so far Right) Kerry was the easy winner.

But in the more rural counties, Bush campaigned hard, and he won more votes in 2004 than in 2000. People wondered what Rove was doing there, preaching to the choir, and now it's clear. Bush was preaching to the choir .. and they found their messiah.


To be sure to get them to the polls in large numbers, the Republican Governor (an idiot descendant of President Taft from Cincinnati) got a Constitutional Amendment on the Ballot to ban gay marriage and all civil unions ( a real win fall for corporations looking to save money and a real hot button for the Christians) ... that deft ploy drove the conservative base out in larger numbers than 2000.

The national discussion about an Amendment was a ploy to make it a state's issue. Rove is an evil genius.

On the other hand they hit their strengths with the bus tours in rural areas. They also kept Kerry supporters out of these rallies. This happened on many occasions in Ohio and is well documented. People in Kerry T- shirts were asked to leave. Citizens were not allowed to listen to their President speak about his aims for the future.

What kind of leader is it that says you are with me or against me? What kind of President turns away his own citizens?



So we have the new America, unfolding right here. Values means Christianity, and the economy, health care, Iraq, terrorism ... these are way down the charts. God is more important than these petty things, of course.

Our Democracy is in serious trouble and the rest of the world needs to be prepared for the "values" attack that is about to spread further over the planet. You really need to prepare.

The rule of values, and one religion's values, this was not the intent of America and is a clear failure of America, and of Democracy. Majority domination was not the aim. Tolerance, fairness, justice and the protection of the minority, not the marginalization of the minority ... this was the aim.

We have a President who divides based on his own global test ...  faith.   A man whose idea of tolerance is "see it OUR way and I will include you in the spoils of power."    This is not democracy. This is the beginning of the end of America.

Freedom of religion does not mean the freedom to dominate with your religion. That's not democracy, that's the end of America.

In the world domination plan of Karl Rove, any authentic criticism of Bush was turned and fired at Kerry ... and so the masses say. "Both sides are the same!"   This is a masterful manipulation and it has lead us to doubt the existence of true facts in politics. To have no truth is to have no discussion. To have no discussion is to have no democracy, only the rule of faith and fear and mob rule.

Many college educated and poorly educated Christians alike, along with President Bush feel calmly sure they are endowed with a righteous fix for this world ... and ironically they feel at the same time they are fixing us with their superior values that the majority of the world will be destroyed at the Rapture, with the second coming in 3000 AD or thereabouts as predicted in the Bible.

I'm sorry Ohio let you down, but who can argue with faith?   This election was all about one topic ... faith ... as is this country now.

Policy issues and character are all a smoke screen for "values".    A born again is good enough for them ... certainly better than a tolerant Catholic.    An empire builder is fine, as long as it's a Christian Empire.




Tolerance is flip flopping after all ... it is to disagree with and yet accept... we can't have that!

Befriend or condemn!


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Brian Lucey
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Paul Frindle

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Re: How Ohio was Won
« Reply #1 on: November 03, 2004, 09:46:18 am »

lucey wrote on Wed, 03 November 2004 07:04

I'll understand if you kill this George, but I need to tell what has happened in Ohio, and in America.  And what this means for everyone.


HOW OHIO WAS WON ... AND WHAT IT MEANS FOR THE WORLD              


"Values" has become the central theme of Karl Rove and GWBush.  

This word has been usurped in a 30 year smear campaign against science, democracy, spirituality and good people everywhere with lives that diverge from the Country Club and the boardroom.

And in this most historic election, both for 4 more years of Bush Inc. and for a 20 year reign of Christian-based Supreme Court rulings, "values" and more specifically the alignment of our government with Christianity has won it for Bush in Ohio and the middle of the country generally.

In some of the counties in Ohio that have lost the MOST Jobs Bush won. Why? "Values"

In the capital Columbus, Cleveland, Dayton, Youngstown and Akron ... all the largest Cities (except Cincinnati which is almost fascist it's so far Right) Kerry was the easy winner.

But in the more rural counties, Bush campaigned hard, and he won more votes in 2004 than in 2000. People wondered what Rove was doing there, preaching to the choir, and now it's clear. Bush was preaching to the choir .. and they found their messiah.


To be sure to get them to the polls in large numbers, the Republican Governor (an idiot descendant of President Taft from Cincinnati) got a Constitutional Amendment on the Ballot to ban gay marriage and all civil unions ( a real win fall for corporations looking to save money and a real hot button for the Christians) ... that deft ploy drove the conservative base out in larger numbers than 2000.

The national discussion about an Amendment was a ploy to make it a state's issue. Rove is an evil genius.

On the other hand they hit their strengths with the bus tours in rural areas. They also kept Kerry supporters out of these rallies. This happened on many occasions in Ohio and is well documented. People in Kerry T- shirts were asked to leave. Citizens were not allowed to listen to their President speak about his aims for the future.

What kind of leader is it that says you are with me or against me? What kind of President turns away his own citizens?



So we have the new America, unfolding right here. Values means Christianity, and the economy, health care, Iraq, terrorism ... these are way down the charts. God is more important than these petty things, of course.

Our Democracy is in serious trouble and the rest of the world needs to be prepared for the "values" attack that is about to spread further over the planet. You really need to prepare.

The rule of values, and one religion's values, this was not the intent of America and is a clear failure of America, and of Democracy. Majority domination was not the aim. Tolerance, fairness, justice and the protection of the minority, not the marginalization of the minority ... this was the aim.

We have a President who divides based on his own global test ...  faith.   A man whose idea of tolerance is "see it OUR way and I will include you in the spoils of power."    This is not democracy. This is the beginning of the end of America.

Freedom of religion does not mean the freedom to dominate with your religion. That's not democracy, that's the end of America.

In the world domination plan of Karl Rove, any authentic criticism of Bush was turned and fired at Kerry ... and so the masses say. "Both sides are the same!"   This is a masterful manipulation and it has lead us to doubt the existence of true facts in politics. To have no truth is to have no discussion. To have no discussion is to have no democracy, only the rule of faith and fear and mob rule.

Many college educated and poorly educated Christians alike, along with President Bush feel calmly sure they are endowed with a righteous fix for this world ... and ironically they feel at the same time they are fixing us with their superior values that the majority of the world will be destroyed at the Rapture, with the second coming in 3000 AD or thereabouts as predicted in the Bible.

I'm sorry Ohio let you down, but who can argue with faith?   This election was all about one topic ... faith ... as is this country now.

Policy issues and character are all a smoke screen for "values".    A born again is good enough for them ... certainly better than a tolerant Catholic.    An empire builder is fine, as long as it's a Christian Empire.




Tolerance is flip flopping after all ... it is to disagree with and yet accept.

Befriend or condemn!





I am not an american - so please forgive me from commenting, but I could not agree more with the sentiments expressed above, you reflect much of the opinions of all thinkers in the wider world.

What has happened today is effectively an election for the world. The result is going to herald an era of more strife, more terrorism, greater divisions and as a result markedly less global security and freedom. From where I am sitting outside America, the only positive hope that comes from all this is the realisation that around half of all americans are similarly perceptive and remain in fear of their own regime. This means that some hope of change survives Smile
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George Massenburg

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Re: How Ohio was Won
« Reply #2 on: November 03, 2004, 09:49:19 am »

lucey wrote on Wed, 03 November 2004 01:04


[...]"Values" has become the central theme of Karl Rove and GWBush.  

This word has been usurped in a 30 year smear campaign against science, democracy, spirituality and good people everywhere with lives that diverge from the Country Club and the boardroom.
[...]


Thanks for being brave enough to post this.  I see where Brad has moved this over before it generated a ruckus on my forum.  I'll take awhile to see what needs to be stated publically on my forum.  If anything...

I suppose I'm not surprised at the outcome of the election, neither the presidential race nor the congressional races.  I am surprised at how many people just don't read.  And I'm also surprised at how many supposedly intelligent people vote based on single issues.

George
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Kevin Perry

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Re: How Ohio was Won
« Reply #3 on: November 03, 2004, 10:15:06 am »

George Massenburg wrote on Wed, 03 November 2004 14:49


[...]

I suppose I'm not surprised at the outcome of the election, neither the presidential race nor the congressional races.  I am surprised at how many people just don't read.  And I'm also surprised at how many supposedly intelligent people vote based on single issues.


Hi George.....why do you say this?  Because millions more people disagree with you than agree with you it must be that they don't know what you know?  They haven't read what you have read?   I think we're living in the day of the most informed voters ever thanks to the internet with sites like factcheck,  votesmart and other legit resources.   Yes, of course there is a lot of crap out there.....but 20 years ago what were the information resources?  Don't write off people as uninformed just because your in the minority on one election.   When you voted for a winning candidate in the past, did that mean people were adequately reading?


As an aside,  the electoral college is silly.  I thought the 2000 election was an obvious example of how it is archaic and needs to be done away with.    Gore won the American vote.   This election underscores it again.   Bush gets a historical majority in the popular vote...and the next day we're still hearing how close it is.    It is a 300 year old device that is no longer needed.
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lucey

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Re: How Ohio was Won
« Reply #4 on: November 03, 2004, 10:34:00 am »

Kevin Perry wrote on Wed, 03 November 2004 10:15



Hi George.....why do you say this?  Because millions more people disagree with you than agree with you it must be that they don't know what you know?  They haven't read what you have read?   I think we're living in the day of the most informed voters ever thanks to the internet with sites like factcheck,  votesmart and other legit resources.   Yes, of course there is a lot of crap out there.....but 20 years ago what were the information resources?  Don't write off people as uninformed just because your in the minority on one election.   When you voted for a winning candidate in the past, did that mean people were adequately reading?



Bush does not read the papers, only the Bible.

Our country is in the hands of a majority who have a flawed view ... that religious Freedom means ruling the democracy with their Religious view.

If every American had only a 2 year college education as to the intent of our country, by reading the papers of all the founders, on all sides ... they would find out that we are off course.  Today is not the spirit of America, today is the ongoing death of democracy.

To vote is not democracy.

To win a majority is not to be Righteous.

This is not a matter or 'opinion' or 'bias' .. it's a matter of fact.

When faith trumps fact, you have a theocracy.  Everything about this election says Theocracy.  The fear campaign, the exit polls on values over issues, the education of most of the red counties in America.   I have 100% respect for the faith of every American, but their intelligence is another matter.  Their understanding of what America is, that's another matter too.




I was asked in a PM .. "what to do?"  do we relive the 20s and exPatriate?

No.  To leave would be to quit and to accept the majority as right.

The religious right is a fear based and hateful bunch of people who masquerade around as if they know love and conservatism.  They do not know love, nor tolerance, and they do not understand the country they control at this time.  Their 'conservatism' is global Theocracy.

America is not a majority-rule idea ... it's a timeless idea based in principles that include defending the minority views.  There is a huge priority placed on this by the Founders.

We need to reeducate the majority and we need to love them, even as they hate us, and hate the various minority ideas that they suppress.

We need to expand our own congregations and we need to stick together for America's future. We need to slowly educate the majority that their morality is their choice as Americans, yet their rulership is mandated by a wider standard.



For sure we now know this.... the bubble of American ethical supremacy in the world, and all the economic, principle based and diplomatic (read: freedom spreading) gains that came with that are gone.

The moral talk of the Right is a smokescreen for their insular views, their fear of freedom and the diverstity of humanity, and their narrow and manipulative definition of values.  
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Brian Lucey
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MB

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Re: How Ohio was Won
« Reply #5 on: November 03, 2004, 11:06:28 am »

Nice post Brian but the fact is something significant changed for a lot of us today.

Yesterday I was disgusted with Bush and his cronies.

Today I'm disgusted with Americans.

Yesterday I blamed Bush.

Today I blame Americans.

You didn't fulfill your moral responsiblity and get rid of this abomination; you entrenched him with a majority.

I'm no longer willing to blame the media's complicity; unwilling to put it down to clever spin. Bush's contempt for humanity is absolutely transparent and self-evident. He killed 100,000 Iraqis for a crime they didn't commit. You gave him a glowing endorsement and solid majority in the popular vote. How is that moral or Christian? It's jingoism at it's worse, imperialist, neo-conservative bullshit. And you re-elected this idiot and all the cynicism and hypocrisy he represents?

Shame Americans, shame.


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Paul Frindle

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Re: How Ohio was Won
« Reply #6 on: November 03, 2004, 11:32:12 am »

>>>>
The religious right is a fear based and hateful bunch of people who masquerade around as if they know love and conservatism. They do not know love, nor tolerance, and they do not understnad the country they control at this time. Their 'conservatism' is global Theocracy.

America is not a majority-rule idea ... it's a timeless idea based in principles that include defending the minority views. There is a huge priority placed on this by the Founders.

We need to reeducate the majority and we need to love them, even as they hate us, and hate the varioous minority ideas that they suppress.

We need to expand our own congregations and we need to stick together for America's future. We need to slowly educate the majority that their morality is their choice as Americans, yet their rulership is mandated by a wider standard.

For sure we now know this.... the bubble of American ethical supremacy in the world, and all the economic, principle based and diplomatic (read: freedom spreading) gains that came with that are gone.

The moral talk of the Right is a smokescreen for their insular views, their fear of freedom and the diverstity of humanity, and their narrow and manipulative definition of values.
>>>>

No truer words could be spoken Smile I would add that this sentiment should apply to the whole world - not just the USA.
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PRobb

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Re: How Ohio was Won
« Reply #7 on: November 03, 2004, 11:46:00 am »

Do the American people really want to live in a Christian Iran? That seems to be the message of this election. The only possible silver lining I can see in this is that when the people see what they just voted for they will be horrified and the midterms will see a return to sanity. What scares the crap out of me is that the people may actually want a theocracy. If this is true, our days as a great nation are numbered.
This is a sad day in American history.
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PookyNMR

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Re: How Ohio was Won
« Reply #8 on: November 03, 2004, 11:48:37 am »

You think you guys are disappointed, I was cheering for Ralph Nader...

Nathan - a displaced American
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George Massenburg

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Re: How Ohio was Won
« Reply #9 on: November 03, 2004, 11:48:39 am »

Kevin Perry wrote on Wed, 03 November 2004 09:15

George Massenburg wrote on Wed, 03 November 2004 14:49


[...]

I suppose I'm not surprised at the outcome of the election, neither the presidential race nor the congressional races.  I am surprised at how many people just don't read.  And I'm also surprised at how many supposedly intelligent people vote based on single issues.


Hi George.....why do you say this?  Because millions more people disagree with you than agree with you it must be that they don't know what you know?  They haven't read what you have read?   I think we're living in the day of the most informed voters ever thanks to the internet with sites like factcheck,  votesmart and other legit resources.   Yes, of course there is a lot of crap out there.....but 20 years ago what were the information resources?  Don't write off people as uninformed just because your in the minority on one election.   When you voted for a winning candidate in the past, did that mean people were adequately reading?


As an aside,  the electoral college is silly.  I thought the 2000 election was an obvious example of how it is archaic and needs to be done away with.    Gore won the American vote.   This election underscores it again.   Bush gets a historical majority in the popular vote...and the next day we're still hearing how close it is.    It is a 300 year old device that is no longer needed.


I very much look forward to debating this with you face to face one day, perhaps soon.  Because if you have had a reasonable education, and have the intellectual ability to retain several perhaps conflicting points of view and if you know the facts it shouldn't be difficult to make it clear why I'm so confounded about folks choosing Bush as the leader of the most powerful country in the world.

Why am I afraid?  Start here: because very close to half of the people in this country have expressed that they don't trust Bush's leadership.  Rather than govern from the center, as Clinton more or less did, and as politicians in other countries must often do, Bush has acted and indicates that he will continue to act as if he has a mandate to pursue the conservative right agenda unfettered.

And he's a liar.

George
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ajcamlet

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Re: How Ohio was Won
« Reply #10 on: November 03, 2004, 11:50:34 am »

MB wrote on Wed, 03 November 2004 11:06


Yesterday I was disgusted with Bush and his cronies.

Today I'm disgusted with Americans.

Yesterday I blamed Bush.

Today I blame Americans.

You didn't fulfill your moral responsiblity and get rid of this abomination; you entrenched him with a majority.



this man is right.  I have heard Sean Hannity call the Northeast a whining focus group that should get with the program.

We in the NYC metro area did our job.  California did its job.

The fat, bloated, fearful, close minded, uber-christian middle of this country let us all down.

Kiss Roe v. Wade good bye.

Stem cell research - c-ya.

Oh - and all you queers better move to the coasts.

Lets just call it what it is - The Crusade continues.

mark fassett

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Re: How Ohio was Won
« Reply #11 on: November 03, 2004, 12:20:44 pm »

Blame Americans... we do deserve it.  However, just remember that MILLIONS of Americans, just under half the registered voters, voted against Bush.

It doesn't say much for the intelligence of the general American public though, I'll certainly agree... and rightly so.  When the majority vote for a guy who is responsible for the lives of 100,000+ people in war with a false premise... well, what else is there to say?  If "faith" is a more important tenent then jobs and people freakin' LIVES then what else is there to say?  

Just remember there are two Americas.  I live in California, and every election I'm reminded again why I still do.  
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Paul Frindle

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Re: How Ohio was Won
« Reply #12 on: November 03, 2004, 01:14:50 pm »

mark fassett wrote on Wed, 03 November 2004 17:20

Blame Americans... we do deserve it.  However, just remember that MILLIONS of Americans, just under half the registered voters, voted against Bush.

It doesn't say much for the intelligence of the general American public though, I'll certainly agree... and rightly so.  When the majority vote for a guy who is responsible for the lives of 100,000+ people in war with a false premise... well, what else is there to say?  If "faith" is a more important tenent then jobs and people freakin' LIVES then what else is there to say?  

Just remember there are two Americas.  I live in California, and every election I'm reminded again why I still do.  


This isn't the fault of the american people, any more than any other regime has been the sole fault of whatever population was around at the time of its inception. It's a kind of infectious paradigm that engulfs the way people think and see things. It's a problem with human nature and the way we are made. Problem is - as history tells us - by the time people wake up to it, all too often they have been stripped of the very powers they once had to redress things Sad

IMVHO and experience there is nothing more dangerous to humanity than people who have found reason to believe their convictions are divinely blessed and therefore unassailable. The reason that 'faith' and its accompanying simplistic reactions are so compelling and infectious is that they require less effort and consideration in their wholesale adoption Sad

The more you 'stress' a population by leading them into strife and installing fear and adversity as a constant low level condition, the more they tire and the more likely they are to adopt the simplistic concepts and actions they are presented with. All dictators since the beginning of humanity have used such methods - sadly they are second nature and part of the human condition.
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Kevin Perry

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Re: How Ohio was Won
« Reply #13 on: November 03, 2004, 01:16:37 pm »

George Massenburg wrote on Wed, 03 November 2004 16:48


I very much look forward to debating this with you face to face one day, perhaps soon.  Because if you have had a reasonable education, and have the intellectual ability to retain several perhaps conflicting points of view and if you know the facts it shouldn't be difficult to make it clear why I'm so confounded about folks choosing Bush as the leader of the most powerful country in the world.




That would be fun....I live right up the road.  (Actually looked at some land not long ago down in L.F.)   We've met but I'm sure you don't remember me.  

When that day comes we can talk music/producing for a bit right?  Just a few questions about "Straighten Up and Fly Right" would suffice.  
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Techne

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Re: How Ohio was Won
« Reply #14 on: November 03, 2004, 01:46:48 pm »

We had the opportunity to prove to the world that the majority of our people are intelligent, globally minded individuals who do not see the world as an "us vs. them" situation.  I'm ashamed to say that we've failed.  I don't think that the problem was in informing/educating people, information often justifies flawed beliefs and gives a false sense of dignity.  

Knowledge is not wisdom.  

The reality of all this (as we've now blatently admited to the world) is that many Americans, deep down, are self serving elitists who do not care one iota what goes on outside our borders.  Foreign policy to these people is always either an offense or defense.  
It's going to be a long, long 4 years.
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