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Author Topic: AKG T 5743 Transformer: Suitable For C12?  (Read 9750 times)

duskb

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AKG T 5743 Transformer: Suitable For C12?
« on: November 23, 2015, 01:10:42 pm »

Klaus,
Can you give me any information on this output trannie? Someone told me this was used in the later model "C12 reissues" but I cant seem to find any information on them doing either a search or asking within the circles i know.

Any idea electrically how they differ from the original T14 or the Hauffe copy?
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klaus

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Re: AKG T 5743
« Reply #1 on: November 23, 2015, 02:29:28 pm »

T5743 was used in some C12VR and "The Tube" output transformers (labeled "▄66" in its schematics. VR and Tube circuits are identical). I measured a -11dB output, compared to the T14/1 used in original C12 mics. T5743 was also used in the approximately 100 fake C12 made by Norbert Pape in Hamburg in the 1980s.

Regarding Haufe or Hiller T14 transformers:
I have so far not bee able to verify that these were used in early C12. I have just finished authenticating two extremely early C12 from fall 1953 (power supply serial number 001!)and spring 1954 (#017) respectively, and they, just as all other C12 until 1958 I have inspected, were equipped with a Henry Radio V2219 or V2148 transformer. (One exception: Austrian broadcast 'Siemens'-badged C12 had a R÷hde & Schwarz transformer).

Can someone show me a picture of a T14 inside a C12? I have seen Oliver Archut's side-by-side photos of C12 transformers,which included a T14 made by Hiller, but have yet to verify their installation in a mic or their mention on an AKG  schematic. It may be that AKG tried the Hiller in its C1/2 prototypes but during C12 serialization went with the locally-made Henry transformer. Henry also supplied AKG with its C12 power supply transformers.

Proof of the T14 as used by AKG in production mics would help my understanding of AKG's C12 history.
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Klaus Heyne
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duskb

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Re: AKG T 5743
« Reply #2 on: November 23, 2015, 02:56:33 pm »

T5743 is what AKG labels "▄66" as C12VR and "The Tube" output transformers in its schematics (both circuits are identical). I measured them to have a -11dB output, compared to the T14/1 used in original C12 mics. T5743 was also used in the approximately 100 fake C12 made by Norbert Pape in Hamburg in the 1980s.

In this case it's a Pape mic I found it in. Aside from the gain issues, which in theory can be recovered by adding more amplification, how does/would you expect the response or slew rate (if applicable) change between the two? Is it just gain that changes or is there more going on than that?

FWIW, the trannie does not sound bad but compared to any other C12 I believe I hear a difference. It's hard to say if it's any more different than you'd expect to find from one C12 to the next...
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Dusk Bennett
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klaus

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Re: AKG T 5743 Transformer: Suitable For C12?
« Reply #3 on: November 24, 2015, 02:07:08 am »

It's been a while since I converted a couple of dozen of these Pape copies to C12-functionality for the importer at the time. If I remember correctly, the big 5743 transformer was not bad, but a bit wooley and slugglish sounding, compared to the Haufe T14/1.

Speaking of which: This little guy is one of those magic complements that, on paper should not even work: its core has miniscule iron, it is primitive in its winding structure and blows like a fast blow fuse anytime someone hot plugs a mic. But it's magic in C12, C24, C28 and ELA M 251.

 
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Klaus Heyne
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duskb

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Re: AKG T 5743 Transformer: Suitable For C12?
« Reply #4 on: November 24, 2015, 03:23:50 pm »

It's been a while since I converted a couple of dozen of these Pape copies to C12-functionality for the importer at the time. If I remember correctly, the big 5743 transformer was not bad, but a bit wooley and slugglish sounding, compared to the Haufe T14/1.

Speaking of which: This little guy is one of those magic complements that, on paper should not even work: its core has miniscule iron, it is primitive in its winding structure and blows like a fast blow fuse anytime someone hot plugs a mic. But it's magic in C12, C24, C28 and ELA M 251.

Thanks Klaus, as always the education you offer is invaluable, really.

In this situation both Jeb (who reached out to you this week) and I are trying to sort through some details on some Pape's you once serviced. I have a Pape (with the 5743) which does sound nice but he's suggesting I make a lateral move over to the one with the T14 since we have the chance. All else being equal the transformers appear to be the only difference (aside from you servicing one and not the other).

We're just going to listen to all of them and I'll make my purchasing decisions on what sounds better. Not jumping ship on a mic that has served me well just because it doesn't have a 'stock' trannie.
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Dusk Bennett
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klaus

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Re: AKG T 5743 Transformer: Suitable For C12?
« Reply #5 on: November 24, 2015, 04:19:24 pm »

Would it not be easiest to just transplant a T14/1, leave everything else as is, and listen to the same mic? 

I am never comfortable with microphone comparison tests where more than one variable is at play. Comparing two "similar" mics, dozens of variables can overshadow what you are looking for.
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J.J. Blair

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Re: AKG T 5743 Transformer: Suitable For C12?
« Reply #6 on: November 24, 2015, 07:20:45 pm »

Klaus, have you listened to any of the current Haufe T-14/1s?  One of my original's wires got so brittle, I was worried about the condition and tried one of the newer Haufes, and didn't hear any noticeable difference.  I wonder if I just had a good batch, or they are actually making a decent transformer. 
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J.J. Blair

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Re: AKG T 5743 Transformer: Suitable For C12?
« Reply #7 on: November 24, 2015, 07:25:21 pm »

BTW, my Pape mkII has a T5743, as well.  I've always kind of found this mic to sound very useful as is, so I never changed it.  It has the Haun capsule, which sounds much more forward than a CK12, but for some things, it's absolutely amazing. 
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klaus

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Re: AKG T 5743 Transformer: Suitable For C12?
« Reply #8 on: November 25, 2015, 01:30:44 am »

Klaus, have you listened to any of the current Haufe T-14/1s?

Not recently. I bought mine in the late 1980s. Had them special-ordered from Haufe in the Taunus Mountains. I still remember my conversations with the guy who was in charge: by that time, Haufe made their money with transformers for door bells and similar non-audio applications.

The head guy was very cavalier when I asked him to copy the new ones exactly. I think he said "we never changed anything about them". He also included drawings and a data sheet with the shipment.

So, my longwinded answer: With the late 1980s T14/1 I cannot hear a difference from the 1950s or 1960s, but I may be fooling myself thinking I want to believe that those old amber-colored original T14/1 exclusively made for AKG MUST have sounded better!  But it's such a primitive device, it does not really make sense that some type of sophistication may now be lost...

I would stay away from the ones Telefunken/Northamerica uses. As far as I remember, these have a modified frequency response to compensate for the capsules they were using.
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Klaus Heyne
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klaus

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Re: AKG T 5743 Transformer: Suitable For C12?
« Reply #9 on: November 25, 2015, 01:32:57 am »

BTW, my Pape mkII has a T5743, as well.  I've always kind of found this mic to sound very useful as is, so I never changed it.  It has the Haun capsule, which sounds much more forward than a CK12, but for some things, it's absolutely amazing.
Pape's  C12 copy mics never came with Haun capsules. He only used Golden Gate CK12 recycled from AKG Service's waste bins.
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Klaus Heyne
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soapfoot

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Re: AKG T 5743 Transformer: Suitable For C12?
« Reply #10 on: November 25, 2015, 09:14:04 am »

On the topic of duplicating the old transformers exactly, Klaus (and I sure wish Oliver were here to ask, as well)--

Do you perceive that different vendors of magnet wire, and different types of insulation, can impact the performance of a transformer in an audible way? If so, do you have any explanations for why this might be?

I ask only because it is so with guitar pickups-- formvar, plain enamel, polysol all perform and sound differently in that context (though I cannot explain why).
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Jim Williams

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Re: AKG T 5743 Transformer: Suitable For C12?
« Reply #11 on: November 25, 2015, 11:04:04 am »

Send one to Jensen Transformers and they can model it on their Comtran software. Then every measurement and perameter will be known.

Years ago those in LA would sub a Jensen 1/12 ratio 'direct box' transformer into a C-12 design with good results.
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duskb

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Re: AKG T 5743 Transformer: Suitable For C12?
« Reply #12 on: November 25, 2015, 01:58:14 pm »

Would it not be easiest to just transplant a T14/1, leave everything else as is, and listen to the same mic? 

I am never comfortable with microphone comparison tests where more than one variable is at play. Comparing two "similar" mics, dozens of variables can overshadow what you are looking for.

Thats a good question because I was wondering the same thing. This guy wants alot of $ over and above what I already have invested in the mic. How much could it possibly cost to swap out a trannie if I was so inclined? PLUS I LIKE the capsule I already have. Lots to wonder about.
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Dusk Bennett
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klaus

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Re: AKG T 5743 Transformer: Suitable For C12?
« Reply #13 on: November 25, 2015, 05:39:13 pm »

....they can model it on their Comtran software. Then every measurement and parameter will be known.
I am wary of such claims. How is it decided how many parameters, and in what order of relevance, constitutes completion of the exercise? Don't we already have enough mediocre or worse-sounding copy capsules to prove that this approach is barely good enough to satisfy the amateur market? And have we already forgotten the false claims and failed attempts from microphone modeling vendors?

Here is an interesting primer on the immense complexities of audio transformer design:
http://vintagewindings.com/tech%20swag/Audio%20Transformer%20Sound.pdf
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Klaus Heyne
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Jim Williams

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Re: AKG T 5743 Transformer: Suitable For C12?
« Reply #14 on: November 26, 2015, 11:27:37 am »

Jensen has beeen modeling transformers for decades now. The comtran software was developed just for that purpose. I would not dismiss it out of hand. They got a handle on it.

Then again, I do see the value of maintaining some mysticisim about it. That has worked well for other companies over the years.
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klaus

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Re: AKG T 5743 Transformer: Suitable For C12?
« Reply #15 on: November 26, 2015, 01:15:12 pm »

Does your remark imply that manufacturers dupe customers by purposefully fogging up an area which you believe an objective, scientific approach has already cleared up?

I am thinking the opposite: some of us professionals and amateurs who love good sounds freely acknowledge that there is still a vast amount of scientific exploration to be done before we can apply data towards better sounding microphones.

Can we agree that, regardless of our positions, encouraging critical listening is a step towards better audio?
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Klaus Heyne
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AusTex64

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Re: AKG T 5743 Transformer: Suitable For C12?
« Reply #16 on: November 26, 2015, 10:30:06 pm »

Klaus, thanks for the link to that Vintage Windings transformer article. I bought the tapped inductors for my Pultec clones from Chris. Great guy and product. Learned a ton from the article.
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J.J. Blair

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Re: AKG T 5743 Transformer: Suitable For C12?
« Reply #17 on: November 27, 2015, 03:37:37 am »

Pape's  C12 copy mics never came with Haun capsules. He only used Golden Gate CK12 recycled from AKG Service's waste bins.

Klaus, I think you forgot.  We covered this a while back.  There was a second run with a Haun capsule.  Aside from mine, I have seen a dozen such ones here in LA that Jerry from Coast is sitting on.  A friend bought one from Christie McVie like that, too.  I think Norbert ran out of AKG parts as mine and almost all the ones I call the Pape mkII have Tuchel connectors, instead of the recessed AKG connector.  Oil knew all about this later version. 
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klaus

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Re: AKG T 5743 Transformer: Suitable For C12?
« Reply #18 on: November 27, 2015, 12:48:51 pm »

I probably did forget. What's the Haun capsule-type used? A CK12-copy? Or some variant?
Regarding connectors on Pape's C12 copies: All the ones I have seen had 12-pin Tuchels, as used in SM69 and C24.
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Klaus Heyne
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Re: AKG T 5743 Transformer: Suitable For C12?
« Reply #19 on: November 28, 2015, 07:28:31 am »

Is it the same Haun Josephson uses in the 7 series mics?
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J.J. Blair

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Re: AKG T 5743 Transformer: Suitable For C12?
« Reply #20 on: November 30, 2015, 09:08:37 pm »

It is a CK12 copy.  White-ish, smooth edges.  If I can, I'll post a picture.
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Jim Williams

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Re: AKG T 5743 Transformer: Suitable For C12?
« Reply #21 on: December 01, 2015, 11:13:00 am »

Does your remark imply that manufacturers dupe customers by purposefully fogging up an area which you believe an objective, scientific approach has already cleared up?

Yes, there has always been a lot of smoke and mirrors in the audio biz. It's got worse since the pro's left the control rooms.

Trust, but verify.
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duskb

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Re: AKG T 5743 Transformer: Suitable For C12?
« Reply #22 on: December 01, 2015, 12:43:24 pm »

Trust, but verify.

This does not sound like an unreasonable assertion.

BTW, Jim, I'm still using your modded 414BULS 10+ years later and they work very well for the application I use them for. Not sure how it's changed over the years but it was money well spent. I won't sell them.

Klaus,
How obtainable are the T14 copies that you were referring to above? What do they cost and where would one get them if they were so inclined.
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Dusk Bennett
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klaus

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Re: AKG T 5743 Transformer: Suitable For C12?
« Reply #23 on: December 01, 2015, 02:59:19 pm »

Klaus,
How obtainable are the T14 copies that you were referring to above?
Could you clarify the question for me? I checked my earlier posts, and could not find where I wrote about "T14 copies" available for purchase.  For a while, Oliver Archut sold T14-style transformers (not T14/1 which is much smaller in size). Or did you maybe mean T14/1? The original-spec T14/1 which is still made by Haufe, is still available from the company.
 
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Klaus Heyne
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duskb

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Re: AKG T 5743 Transformer: Suitable For C12?
« Reply #24 on: December 01, 2015, 06:05:27 pm »

Is the T14/1 a direct replacement for the T 5743?
Klaus: Sorry, I messed up the original post.
The T5743 was used by Pape because there was a time, a few decades ago, when Haufe stopped producing the transformer (AKG was the only customer).

There are no Haufe retailers in the U.S., to my knowledge. You need to order the T14/1 directly from Haufe, best via phone call. Someone there speaks English.
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Dusk Bennett
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duskb

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Re: AKG T 5743 Transformer: Suitable For C12?
« Reply #25 on: December 01, 2015, 06:18:05 pm »

Well, I spoke too fast. A Google search only turned up a single website with very little information on Haufe and all of it in German, which is not my language. How does one go about finding a retailer for this product in the USA?
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Dusk Bennett
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Re: AKG T 5743 Transformer: Suitable For C12?
« Reply #26 on: December 01, 2015, 10:23:55 pm »

AMI is still selling their T14 transformers.

http://www.tab-funkenwerk.com/id76.html
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klaus

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Re: AKG T 5743 Transformer: Suitable For C12?
« Reply #27 on: December 02, 2015, 02:25:39 am »

The AMI website erroneously states that Telefunken ELA M251 used a T14. These AKG-made models came exclusively with Haufe's T14/1.
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Klaus Heyne
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duskb

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Re: AKG T 5743 Transformer: Suitable For C12?
« Reply #28 on: December 02, 2015, 01:02:04 pm »

AMI is still selling their T14 transformers.

http://www.tab-funkenwerk.com/id76.html

Thanks, I put a call out to one of their dealers.
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Dusk Bennett
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Re: AKG T 5743 Transformer: Suitable For C12?
« Reply #29 on: December 03, 2015, 12:39:38 pm »

Is the T14/1 a direct replacement for the T 5743?
Klaus: Sorry, I messed up the original post.
The T5743 was used by Pape because there was a time, a few decades ago, when Haufe stopped producing the transformer (AKG was the only customer).

There are no Haufe retailers in the U.S., to my knowledge. You need to order the T14/1 directly from Haufe, best via phone call. Someone there speaks English.


Klaus (et al),
I managed to find a T14 from TAB. Will substituting this tranny over the 5743 require any changes to the microphone or the supply or will this be a simple swap out?
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Dusk Bennett
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klaus

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Re: AKG T 5743 Transformer: Suitable For C12?
« Reply #30 on: December 03, 2015, 01:16:00 pm »

If it is a C12 or copy of a C12 you want to install Oliver's T14 copy in, no problem! Just make sure you wire it up polarity correct.
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Re: AKG T 5743 Transformer: Suitable For C12?
« Reply #31 on: December 03, 2015, 06:07:18 pm »

Is Telefunken Elektroakoustik still using the Haufe?  Can you get one from them?
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duskb

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Re: AKG T 5743 Transformer: Suitable For C12?
« Reply #32 on: December 04, 2015, 01:53:38 pm »

If it is a C12 or copy of a C12 you want to install Oliver's T14 copy in, no problem! Just make sure you wire it up polarity correct.

Well its a Pape anyways, I wasn't sure if the 5743 had different components required to make it work for the circuit.

I managed to get a T14 from TAB yesterday, should have it inside a week.
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Re: AKG T 5743 Transformer: Suitable For C12?
« Reply #33 on: December 10, 2015, 07:36:35 pm »

Klaus,
I opened up the Pape today and the T5743 has 6 leads coming out of it as opposed to the 4 that appear on the T14 from AMI. Do you have any suggestions on how to integrate the T14 into the mic or is this something that will require more assistance than can be provided over the Internet?
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Re: AKG T 5743 Transformer: Suitable For C12?
« Reply #34 on: December 10, 2015, 07:50:27 pm »

Use an ohm meter and separate the leads: two of them most likely will be the primary coil (somewhere in the mid-to high 100 ohms).

The remaining four are likely from the two secondaries: each coil has an input and output lead. Series connection of the two secondaries will probably get you 200Ω output, parallel 50Ω.

I would run this transformer in the 200Ω output configuration, which would be similar to the series connection of a T14/1. (The AMI T14 secondary output is already wound for 200Ω, hence only two leads.)

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Re: AKG T 5743 Transformer: Suitable For C12?
« Reply #35 on: December 13, 2015, 06:38:56 pm »

Is it the same Haun Josephson uses in the 7 series mics?

Why would Josephson use a Haun CK-12 capsule in his mics when he's known for making precisely that type of capsule (also used in the Manley Gold)?
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