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Author Topic: advice on tuning my jbl 4341 studio monitors  (Read 3572 times)

Richard Wong

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advice on tuning my jbl 4341 studio monitors
« on: November 04, 2015, 10:26:38 am »

at the moment, I have resorted to mixing with a pair of small fostex speakers.

If I try to mix while listening thru my jbl 4341's, and then playback on car stereo, etc, it's not balanced AT ALL

the 4341's have 3 +/- 3db pots.

I suppose that I could mix thru the fostex's and playback thru the jbl's, then tune the attenuators to sound balanced, but was wondering if there is a better/more scientific way

thx
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John Scrip - MASSIVE Mastering

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Re: advice on tuning my jbl 4341 studio monitors
« Reply #1 on: November 04, 2015, 10:40:19 am »

The obvious Q's at this point would be: 

(1) How is the space?  Those are awfully gigantic boxes - Unless that room can handle them, there isn't much that's going to help currently. 

(2) Have you gone through basic calibration and shooting the room?  That said, if (1) hasn't been handled, (2) isn't going to get you anywhere yet... 
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Richard Wong

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Re: advice on tuning my jbl 4341 studio monitors
« Reply #2 on: November 04, 2015, 10:48:03 am »

The obvious Q's at this point would be: 

(1) How is the space?  Those are awfully gigantic boxes - Unless that room can handle them, there isn't much that's going to help currently. 

(2) Have you gone through basic calibration and shooting the room?  That said, if (1) hasn't been handled, (2) isn't going to get you anywhere yet...

1) 15 x 30' finished basement
2) No clue as to what I need and how to calibrate

All I can say is that everything sounds great, even if it sounds awful thru other systems (balance wise)

here is a link to what I mixed yesterday thru the fostex's

https://soundcloud.com/user-680651926/tracks
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John Scrip - MASSIVE Mastering

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Re: advice on tuning my jbl 4341 studio monitors
« Reply #3 on: November 04, 2015, 02:41:35 pm »

First thing's first, I wouldn't attempt a thing until there were *at least* a dozen broadband traps in there.  Assuming concrete walls, maybe more like 18 (2'x4'x4" broadband traps or at the very least, the equivalent in reasonably dense fiber -- Such as several bags of Roxul Safe and Sound). 

It's not even worth trying to shoot the space until that's handled. 

15x30 -- Big is nice, but that's a nasty ratio (1x2 -- Even worse if 7.5' ceilings, which would make it 1x2x4).  And those are gigantic speakers that put out a lot of (if not somewhat squelched) low end. 

The typical non-treated space is *such* a mess that it's difficult (if possible at all) to find out where the "real problems" are.  A "base installation" of broadband treatments in the usual places (all four corners, high side corners, first reflection points to the sides) is the universal starting point.  *Then* you can start trying to dial things in.   It's like pumping out the water so you can actually find the leaks. 

As for actually examining the room, you'd need some sort of room analysis software (Room EQ Wizard I think is the name of a relatively pop pick) and a measurement mic or two (even the Behringer mic will do).  And time - And then probably a bunch more trapping.  But at least you'll probably be able to tell where, how much and if it needs to be tuned to the space. 

IMO/E, YMMV, etc., etc., yada, yada. 
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Richard Wong

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Re: advice on tuning my jbl 4341 studio monitors
« Reply #4 on: November 04, 2015, 03:03:27 pm »

First thing's first, I wouldn't attempt a thing until there were *at least* a dozen broadband traps in there.  Assuming concrete walls, maybe more like 18 (2'x4'x4" broadband traps or at the very least, the equivalent in reasonably dense fiber -- Such as several bags of Roxul Safe and Sound). 

It's not even worth trying to shoot the space until that's handled. 

15x30 -- Big is nice, but that's a nasty ratio (1x2 -- Even worse if 7.5' ceilings, which would make it 1x2x4).  And those are gigantic speakers that put out a lot of (if not somewhat squelched) low end. 

The typical non-treated space is *such* a mess that it's difficult (if possible at all) to find out where the "real problems" are.  A "base installation" of broadband treatments in the usual places (all four corners, high side corners, first reflection points to the sides) is the universal starting point.  *Then* you can start trying to dial things in.   It's like pumping out the water so you can actually find the leaks. 

As for actually examining the room, you'd need some sort of room analysis software (Room EQ Wizard I think is the name of a relatively pop pick) and a measurement mic or two (even the Behringer mic will do).  And time - And then probably a bunch more trapping.  But at least you'll probably be able to tell where, how much and if it needs to be tuned to the space. 

IMO/E, YMMV, etc., etc., yada, yada.

ok, actual measurements are 15 x 25 x 7 1/2

Floor has rubber interlocking tiles on top of wood. Walls are all cheap paneling, ceiling is exposed wooden floor joists....some meatl duscting along one side, some curtains, lots of gear...drums, etc.

I downloaded the rew software, but need a mike solution, I think (usb ??)

thx for the responses    8)
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Fletcher

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Re: advice on tuning my jbl 4341 studio monitors
« Reply #5 on: November 04, 2015, 04:46:19 pm »

You are MASSIVELY screwed with the 7 ft ceiling -- massively!!  The "comb filtering" you will experience from those [not to mention the room ratio of doom] won't give you any form of a definitive picture of what is going on for mixing.  That said -- the way to go is to use those speakers for "fun" stuff -- client playbacks, very loud guitar overdubs... maybe even listening to the final mixes -- but you need something smaller for actual mix work.

Make sense?

Peace
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CN Fletcher

mwagener wrote on Sat, 11 September 2004 14:33
We are selling emotions, there are no emotions in a grid


"Recording engineers are an arrogant bunch
If you've spent most of your life with a few thousand dollars worth of musicians in the studio, making a decision every second and a half... and you and  they are going to have to live with it for the rest of your lives, you'll get pretty arrogant too.  It takes a certain amount of balls to do that... something around three"
Malcolm Chisholm

Richard Wong

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Re: advice on tuning my jbl 4341 studio monitors
« Reply #6 on: November 04, 2015, 04:57:40 pm »

yes, it does....lol

thx
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Fletcher

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Re: advice on tuning my jbl 4341 studio monitors
« Reply #7 on: November 04, 2015, 07:00:20 pm »

Cool -- BTW, Richard -- welcome to R/E/P -- hopefully we can be a positive resource for you.

Peace
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CN Fletcher

mwagener wrote on Sat, 11 September 2004 14:33
We are selling emotions, there are no emotions in a grid


"Recording engineers are an arrogant bunch
If you've spent most of your life with a few thousand dollars worth of musicians in the studio, making a decision every second and a half... and you and  they are going to have to live with it for the rest of your lives, you'll get pretty arrogant too.  It takes a certain amount of balls to do that... something around three"
Malcolm Chisholm

Richard Wong

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Re: advice on tuning my jbl 4341 studio monitors
« Reply #8 on: November 04, 2015, 07:04:01 pm »

Cool -- BTW, Richard -- welcome to R/E/P -- hopefully we can be a positive resource for you.

Peace

already have..altho it appears that I might be 'MASSIVELY SCREWED".....lol    ;D

thanks for the welcome !!
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John Scrip - MASSIVE Mastering

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Re: advice on tuning my jbl 4341 studio monitors
« Reply #9 on: November 04, 2015, 09:32:28 pm »

That all said --

A while back, I helped someone treat a basement with similar measurements.  He also had open joists.  A few trips to the (Home Depot?) and we filled those joists with (you guessed it) Roxul Safe and Sound.  Then we stapled up some nifty fabric. 

The room was a bit overly dead sounding -- But workable.  Ideal?  No.  But it really wasn't bad.  So if it's a "I'm gonna make this work, dammit!" situation, that could potentially -- well, it'll help you get the most out of the space. 
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mbrebes

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Re: advice on tuning my jbl 4341 studio monitors
« Reply #10 on: November 05, 2015, 02:09:02 pm »

Here's a good link to help you understand and evaluate room mode buildup in your space:
http://amroc.andymel.eu/
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Richard Wong

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Re: advice on tuning my jbl 4341 studio monitors
« Reply #11 on: November 05, 2015, 02:13:13 pm »

Here's a good link to help you understand and evaluate room mode buildup in your space:
http://amroc.andymel.eu/

thx, brother
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Jerome Malsack

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Re: advice on tuning my jbl 4341 studio monitors
« Reply #12 on: November 09, 2015, 09:21:41 am »

So the other question should be are your speakers on the 15 ft wall or on the 25 ft wall. 

here is a picture of my 24 x 12 ft room in the basement.  untreated.  My speakers are on the 24 ft wall removing the first reflection points behind me.

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Jerome Malsack

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Re: advice on tuning my jbl 4341 studio monitors
« Reply #13 on: November 09, 2015, 09:25:00 am »

This is done with Room EQ wizard  (REW) 

http://www.roomeqwizard.com/

I use an M-Audio Quattro with Omni IO. 
Behringer ECM 8000 mic. 

True Audio RTA software. 
https://www.trueaudio.com/rta_down.htm


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Jerome Malsack

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Re: advice on tuning my jbl 4341 studio monitors
« Reply #14 on: November 09, 2015, 09:32:29 am »

The room modes in the base area is the problem.  My speakers are a set of JBL 2400 book shelf. with M-audio Sub. 

Room modes around 50 hz and 90 hz 

These pictures should help but you will need to have this for your room with before and after to see what is needing to be fixed and how well the fix worked.   The first picture tells us how the bass in the room is bad and causes various problems. 
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Richard Wong

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Re: advice on tuning my jbl 4341 studio monitors
« Reply #15 on: November 09, 2015, 10:32:59 am »

my 4341's are along the 15' wall... it's a strange layout, with an adjacent  (open door ) 10 x 10' room, a fireplace and more clutter....

back wall is semi-open on the ends as well

What do I need for a mic with rew?

I have an akg condenser recording mike???? and a bunch of shure dynamics  ....sm58, etc

the akg is a Perception 200.....(it picks up a fly scratching it's azz in another room)
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Jerome Malsack

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Re: advice on tuning my jbl 4341 studio monitors
« Reply #16 on: November 09, 2015, 12:06:06 pm »

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Richard Wong

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Re: advice on tuning my jbl 4341 studio monitors
« Reply #17 on: November 11, 2015, 12:30:01 am »

thanks...
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Fletcher

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Re: advice on tuning my jbl 4341 studio monitors
« Reply #18 on: November 11, 2015, 08:41:20 am »

I hate to be a "Debbie Downer"... but there really isn't an electronic / software solution to an acoustic problem -- it might work for the "fun factor"... but will not be anything close to an actual solution.

Peace
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CN Fletcher

mwagener wrote on Sat, 11 September 2004 14:33
We are selling emotions, there are no emotions in a grid


"Recording engineers are an arrogant bunch
If you've spent most of your life with a few thousand dollars worth of musicians in the studio, making a decision every second and a half... and you and  they are going to have to live with it for the rest of your lives, you'll get pretty arrogant too.  It takes a certain amount of balls to do that... something around three"
Malcolm Chisholm

Richard Wong

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Re: advice on tuning my jbl 4341 studio monitors
« Reply #19 on: November 11, 2015, 12:25:19 pm »

hey Deb, how's it hangin' ?

while nothing has changed physically (yet),  I have come to realize a few things

1) Room size is terrible?
2) speaker placement is awful?
3) mixing with 4341's is near impossible

but...

4) The small Fostex's are doing the job for the moment
5) The wall of sound produced by the jbl's seems to impress just about everyone
6) Feedback from this and other sites = Me, not chasing my tail over this, while other more pressing problems are being addressed .

So , when the smoke clears, I will have had ample time to study, research and hopefully make things better....bass traps, etc. plus messing with rew, etc should be fun

Meanwhile here's a mix done using the Fostex's

https://soundcloud.com/user-680651926/flip-flop-fly-240

thx to everyone for the feedback, so far
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Fletcher

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Re: advice on tuning my jbl 4341 studio monitors
« Reply #20 on: November 12, 2015, 11:11:40 am »

Seems like you're being realistic about the situation... and the link you posted sounds fine so it seems like your situation isn't entirely untenable.  At the end of the day the only thing that matters is how the product sounds when it hits the street -- so [at least from what I heard in that link], it seems like you're doing alright.

Peace
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CN Fletcher

mwagener wrote on Sat, 11 September 2004 14:33
We are selling emotions, there are no emotions in a grid


"Recording engineers are an arrogant bunch
If you've spent most of your life with a few thousand dollars worth of musicians in the studio, making a decision every second and a half... and you and  they are going to have to live with it for the rest of your lives, you'll get pretty arrogant too.  It takes a certain amount of balls to do that... something around three"
Malcolm Chisholm

Richard Wong

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Re: advice on tuning my jbl 4341 studio monitors
« Reply #21 on: November 12, 2015, 11:38:10 am »

Seems like you're being realistic about the situation... and the link you posted sounds fine so it seems like your situation isn't entirely untenable.  At the end of the day the only thing that matters is how the product sounds when it hits the street -- so [at least from what I heard in that link], it seems like you're doing alright.

Peace

that clip was my 2nd attempt at trying to get a kind of live sound for my blues trio's demo cd.  UR44/Cubase/fostex.  I have an 01v96vcm that I am learning how to use for live stuff with my other band....a Quebec band that made beach boys songs (in French) popular up here, in the '60's.

I hope to (eventually) control the 01 wirelessly (air fader ?) for the live stuff,  get the 01 talking to Cubase for recording demos and some original material, and install some acoustic treatment along the way.

So far, not bad....just need to keep plucking away at it....small steps

thx
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Fletcher

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Re: advice on tuning my jbl 4341 studio monitors
« Reply #22 on: November 12, 2015, 02:19:08 pm »

Yup

Peace
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CN Fletcher

mwagener wrote on Sat, 11 September 2004 14:33
We are selling emotions, there are no emotions in a grid


"Recording engineers are an arrogant bunch
If you've spent most of your life with a few thousand dollars worth of musicians in the studio, making a decision every second and a half... and you and  they are going to have to live with it for the rest of your lives, you'll get pretty arrogant too.  It takes a certain amount of balls to do that... something around three"
Malcolm Chisholm
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