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Author Topic: WUMP 28 ( Discussions & Techniques )  (Read 9581 times)

Hermetech Mastering

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Re: WUMP 28 ( Discussions & Techniques )
« Reply #15 on: May 04, 2015, 04:21:36 am »

Just took a listen, very high standard as always!

ArtSta, BiigNiick, and Fuse, very nice balance. Fuse, congrats for not pushing it as hard as the rest of us! Kayo, a bit too skewed towards the high end for me. Haven't listened to your second attempt yet.

BiigNiik, just looking at the waveform and would be very interested to know how you got such nice levelling between the different sections, did you do any manual/automated fades?

What I did: 18Hz HPF and 24Khz LPF with Slick EQ on the original file, for headroom. Into analogue chain. Minimal clean compression for bounce/groove, no more than 1.5dB GR. Slight boost at 2k to help push vocals forward a bit, slight cut around 4k for warmth, high shelf boost at 15Khz for air. HPF at 36Hz to try and reduce the boomy bass a bit, LPF at 18kHz for headroom and to avoid limiting distortion later. Then back into PC, dropped the Sum signal by 0.7dB against the Difference for a slight stereo width enhancement, then HPF'd the bass at 61Hz in the Difference channel to centre the bass and give a bit more headroom. Finally into limiter with a maximum of around 3dB of limiting. Then used FinalCD to go from 24/48 to 16/44.

KAyo

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Re: WUMP 28 ( Discussions & Techniques )
« Reply #16 on: May 04, 2015, 11:19:19 am »

Here we go! Listening done.

fuse: Showed great restrain. Sounds smaller than the rest but has a nice listening quality to it overall. No over the top reactions.

Hermetech/ ArtSta/ BiigNiick all have a stronger and louder masters.

Hermetech's is slightly browner, but the high is non troubling.
ArtSta had a more melodic version but, a bigger mid boom to it. Made the piece more engaging though.
BiigNiick has a flatter but a more coherent balance. Bit of everything. Enjoyable though.

Waiting to see what hardware was used here, by all you guys.
_________________________________

On my second master: I used Ozone Izo 5 only in Soundforge. Unlike the first master in Wavelab with Ozone and UAD KHZ and Limiter. My pre-occupation with Headphones, caused a skewed approach. Enjoyed my re-submit thoroughly, but cannot be spoken of here :-X. Personally, I thought keeping it all ITB was better for the piece.

Thanks to Dana and all you guys for the fun times.
I appreciate the jam-ups.


Thanks
KAyo
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BiigNiick

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Re: WUMP 28 ( Discussions & Techniques )
« Reply #17 on: May 04, 2015, 04:54:11 pm »

 good job everyone!  everything i heard was pretty good.  no ugly ducklings ;-P
here are my notes and my settings.


 -nick




   RMS   Peak   gain
Hermetech   -13.9   0   -.5
good guitar tone.  i like how the vocals come forward in your master, but it may not be as smooth as others.


fuse   -16.2   -.3   0
good punch and clarity.  great dynamics left in the master.  the vocals may be still a bit sibilant for my taste.


KAyo   -14.3   0   -1.9
there's a little pop at the start of your file.  also, it's a bit long on the silence before the music comes in for my taste.  you did a good job keeping the impact of the percussion and openness of the top.


ArtSta   -13.2   0   -3
i feel like things are moving around a bit in this mix.  maybe a compress or pumping a bit? or a multiband something?  not sure… i do feel i'm missing a lot of the impact in the percussive elements and clarity missing in the upper mids and top.


BiigNiick   -13.2   0   -3


My Chain and settings:


DAW   PT9 24bit 96kHz
Plugins   Flux ePure II   -3dB @ 65Hz, +2dB @ 72Hz, -2dB @ 950Hz
   Waves R DeEsser   pretty aggressive set around 8kHz
   Lynx AES card
DA   Lavry Blue
TAPE   MCI JH 110C   running ATR 1/2" tape at 30ips +6dB
EQ   Avalon AD2055   -2 @ 100Hz shelf, -2 @ 3.7kHz, +1 @ 25kHz
COMP   Manley Vari-Mu   gentile compression GR < 1dB.  attack very slow, release 2sec
COMP   RND P2 MBP   medium compression GR ~ 1-3dB, ratio  2:1, 60ms attack, release 2sec
AD   Lavry Blue   no A or D sat
   Lynx AES card
Plugins   PSP Xenon   +2dB, -.1 ceiling.  8x oversampling and lookahead enabled
Export 24-96 to DSP Quattro
Export DDP
Import DDP into Sonoris DDP Creater Pro
Export 16-44.1 .wav files





djwaudio

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Re: WUMP 28 ( Discussions & Techniques )
« Reply #18 on: May 04, 2015, 06:29:40 pm »

Cool stuff guys.  I wish I could have played along, but just got back from a nice 10 days on the motorcycle in California.  Glad you enjoyed Tim Snider's track.  He's burnin' on the violin, huh?!
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KAyo

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Re: WUMP 28 ( Discussions & Techniques )
« Reply #19 on: May 05, 2015, 07:52:16 am »

Hi BiigNiick,

That's some great gear!
You can hear the gear's presence in the master.

Tape, Avlon, Lavry, Manley!!
Good stuff mate.

Ciao'
KAyo
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BiigNiick

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Re: WUMP 28 ( Discussions & Techniques )
« Reply #20 on: May 05, 2015, 04:49:34 pm »


BiigNiik, just looking at the waveform and would be very interested to know how you got such nice levelling between the different sections, did you do any manual/automated fades?




no automation or anything fancy/tricky like that.  just 2 compressors a limiter...  i am interested in how people attacked this mix due to the parts that seemed to stick out in some places but not others.


Hermetech, i'd be interested in how you approached compression in your master.  you mention minimal clean compression with 1.5dB of gain reduction on your compressor and another 3 on a limiter.  what kind of compressor is it?  what kind of attack and release did you decide on and how did you get to that decision?
Hi BiigNiick,

That's some great gear!
You can hear gear's presence in the master.

Tape, Avlon, Lavry, Manley!!
Good stuff mate.

Ciao'
KAyo


yep, i love my gear!  it's very nice working at Terra Nova and with Jerry  you can't forget the Neve Master Buss Processor.  i really think it has made a huge difference in the way i use compression.  before with just the Vari-Mu i had trouble getting control and maintaining punch with dynamics.  the MBP was a great pairing.  a gentile groovy tube comp paired with a clean surgical VCA comp, works well for me.
I used Ozone Izo 5 only in Soundforge. Unlike the first master in Wavelab with Ozone and UAD KHZ and Limiter. My pre-occupation with Headphones, caused a skewed approach. Enjoyed my re-submit thoroughly, but cannot be spoken of here . Personally, I thought keeping it all ITB was better for the piece.


KAyo, tell me more about your ITB setup.  I have wavelab and have seen ozone before, but it's been a decade since i've ventured into soundforge and don't have much experience with UAD stuff.  i know the UAD stuff is well respected.  i don't know anything about KHZ or Limiter you are talking about.  more info would be great! 


a very successful WUMP, everyone!  i always enjoy talking with you guys about this kind of stuff

- nick

Hermetech Mastering

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Re: WUMP 28 ( Discussions & Techniques )
« Reply #21 on: May 06, 2015, 03:36:09 am »

Thanks for the info and feedback Nick! Yours was probably my fave version (I want to listen again now!) Do you use one comp for vibe/snap and the other for levelling the RMS more? For the latter, are you using short attack and long release times?

As for me, I have a pair of Chandler Germanium compressors, they were set with a longish attack and a shortish release, low ratio, to groove with the main rhythmic sections, then 'turned down' so no more than about 1.5 GR. I used the 'clean' setting and the R Soft curve for the most transparent results. The limiter was Voxengo Elephant, I have a preset I use that works on about 90% of rhythmic tracks, I just adjust the amount of limiting per track with the input gain.

fuse

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Re: WUMP 28 ( Discussions & Techniques )
« Reply #22 on: May 06, 2015, 09:48:48 am »

My chain was:

Mid/side EQ with UAD camebridge with a -3dB cut at 130Hz at mid to get rid of some dominant bass resonance.
Also a -1dB cut at 700Hz to pull vocals a bit back in the mix.
Next a M/S Ibis to enhance the side in the mid-frequency regions a tad and cut back on the mid of the lower regions.
Next some gentle STC-8 compression with 2dB GR.
After that used the Massive Passive to add a few db to the mid-high and high frequencies (which always sound very natural).
To smooth that a bit further a gentle 1:1,5 compression from the tfpro P38 compressor.
Last in line was Elephant with a +2dB gain just so the peaks would hit just the limiter threshold. (Could easily have added a +6dB gain and got away with, but keeping at K-12 levels was my choice)
AD/DA are Prism Orpheus.

All nice results. My favorite is Hermetech which seems to be more subtle but not as soft as my own version. This track has a few loud sections where a of mid frequencies are happening. To tone that down in a natural way is quite the challenge. As to sibelance it's a mixing issue, IMHO only when it's really bad a ME should fix it.
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ArtSta

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Re: WUMP 28 ( Discussions & Techniques )
« Reply #23 on: May 06, 2015, 02:10:41 pm »

Gentlemen,

I'll post details and notes on listening later this week when I get back from a trip. So far I've listened to Hermetech's (and Kayo's v1) and liked how the mix's character was preserved. More info soon.

Btw. Nick, you couldn't hear pumping, mb, etc like things because I did not use compression on the mix :). Maybe you just heard mix issues (there are some like skewed stereo image and over compression on choruses) that naturally got bigger after mastering :). Essentially there was just an EQ used (and a touch of parallel compression mixed at quite low levels- I'll post details and approach).

Art
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BiigNiick

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Re: WUMP 28 ( Discussions & Techniques )
« Reply #24 on: May 06, 2015, 02:16:47 pm »

Thanks for the info and feedback Nick! Yours was probably my fave version (I want to listen again now!) Do you use one comp for vibe/snap and the other for levelling the RMS more? For the latter, are you using short attack and long release times?


Thanks for the praise ;)


Yeah, kinda like that.  I use the Vari-Mu for vibe and gentile RMS leveling.  Usually under 1dB GR.  attack is almost as slow as it goes, near 70ms.  and the release on the medium setting at 2000ms.  The Neve does more snap/control stuff.  I have the compressor attack set medium around 60ms and  a rather slow release 2000ms again.  the limiter section is VERY fast and not adjustable.  it will catch the first 1/4 cycle of a 20k sine wave!  the only control you have is a threshold, and it touches a few dB.  then into the PSP Xenon limiter adding another 2 dB on this track.  it only occasionally was tapping the digital limiter.


i guess both compressors have rather long release times and medium-slow attacks...


 - nick

BiigNiick

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Re: WUMP 28 ( Discussions & Techniques )
« Reply #25 on: May 06, 2015, 02:21:19 pm »

Btw. Nick, you couldn't hear pumping, mb, etc like things because I did not use compression on the mix :) . Maybe you just heard mix issues (there are some like skewed stereo image and over compression on choruses) that naturally got bigger after mastering :) . Essentially there was just an EQ used (and a touch of parallel compression mixed at quite low levels- I'll post details and approach).

Art


after reading my comments again, maybe that was not exactly what i meant...  yes, definitely mix issues, but i wasn't comparing to the original mix, just the other masters.  i didn't mean to offend or sound harsh.  yes, i'd love to hear more about your approach.  we all learn from eachother, and this group has been awesome with the WUMP!  it's the only thing like it i've found on the internets.


 - nick

ArtSta

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Re: WUMP 28 ( Discussions & Techniques )
« Reply #26 on: May 06, 2015, 06:28:52 pm »

Nick, I didn't take it as offended, harsh or so. I expressed loudly my surprise :). It's always good to have more than single point of view, it's the way to make progress. I'll get back with details and session notes asap.

Art
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Hermetech Mastering

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Re: WUMP 28 ( Discussions & Techniques )
« Reply #27 on: May 07, 2015, 03:56:18 am »

fuse, thanks for the praise! less can often be more, i think. i took a pretty light approach with this track. i agree about the sibilance being a mix issue. i thought the vocal was much too sibilant, particular nearer the end of a track, but was loathe to take a de-esser to it. with a real client i would have just suggested they slap one on the vocal track. :)

nick, thanks for the great info again. i only have one outboard comp, and am always using it for snap rather than actual levelling, so this kind of longer term levelling is something i never really do, but am very much interested in how to go about it. i might have to try some experiments with TDR Kotelinokov GE compressor, either before or after the analogue chain, in addition to my regular compression. agree, this is a cool thing for us all to be doing, i always enjoy the process!

art, looking forward to your notes!

KAyo

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Re: WUMP 28 ( Discussions & Techniques )
« Reply #28 on: May 07, 2015, 11:25:12 am »

Kudos to all. Great conversations going on this WUMP thread.
This is what it’s all about, insights and more insights.

BiigNiick, quick question? I own the NEVE Masterpiece II mastering console, I have always wondered if the MBP sounds somewhat similar. As the masterpiece has those famous Air Montserrat 2 Bus and then the whole Portico series started to follow from there on, and that's always left me wondering. Would love to try one as the Portico is loved etc..

Also, I usually use Wavelab, but due to some farcical issues with live record (Most times, I much prefer to capture a live play through, than render) I encountered issues. The UAD KHZ tool is great (check-out the video) as per the feedback, over zesty usage coupled with the Limiter further punching the walls. The UAD limiter is top notch, you’d like it. The render was truncating. Thanks Artsa..

Sound forge is and has always been my trusty editor. Hopefully, others feel the same. Do try it at some point, I am sure you’d be pleased. In Ozone, (Big fan of v6), I went for pure EQ, Harmonic Exciter, Dynamics [single Bus] and Maximizer, +1db on the output. Rendered file. Came through good. 2nd time around.


EQ: Bell 120hz +1.2db Q0.3 / Bell 520hz -0.6db Q 2.8 / High Shelf 20khz +1.5db Q1.0
Comp: Ratio 1.5 / Knee 10 / Attack 10ms / Release 100ms /
Limiter: Ratio 10.0:1 / Knee 0 / Attack 5.0ms / Release 100ms /

Threshold Peak -10db to -80db
Mix 100%
Dither Stereo link 100% /  Character 4.6 / Type MBIT+ Ultra 16bit Dither Normal / DC filter ON



Reading the rest of the gangs angle ...

Ciao'
KAyo
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BiigNiick

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Re: WUMP 28 ( Discussions & Techniques )
« Reply #29 on: May 11, 2015, 02:03:42 pm »


BiigNiick, quick question? I own the NEVE Masterpiece II mastering console, I have always wondered if the MBP sounds somewhat similar. As the masterpiece has those famous Air Montserrat 2 Bus and then the whole Portico series started to follow from there on, and that's always left me wondering. Would love to try one as the Portico is loved etc..



I don't think the MBP sounds a lot like the masterpiece.  I've only messed around with the masterpiece for an hour or so back almost a decade ago and I wasn't too impressed...  I ended up not really following through on spending more time with it...  The MBP is another story.  I was involved in the early design phase and helped with the prototype a bit.  One of my college friends works as a designer at RND, so it was mutually beneficial;)  I LOVE THIS COMPRESSOR!!!  it is so clean and fast.  totally opposite what the Vari-mu is and they work well together for me.


As far as the RND Portico stuff, i was on the fence about it.  the portico II stuff is out of this world good.  you know, if you're into that super clean, larger-than-live Neve sound ;)


 - nick

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