R/E/P Community

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

Pages: 1 2 3 [All]   Go Down

Author Topic: WUMP 28 ( Discussions & Techniques )  (Read 9600 times)

KAyo

  • R/E/P Forums
  • Full Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 237
  • Real Full Name: KAyo
  • Business Videos 24/7
WUMP 28 ( Discussions & Techniques )
« on: April 24, 2015, 12:27:05 pm »

Hello to the Wump 28 Group!

This is where we explore the MUSIC and unravel the Mastering approaches!

-Upload your master to the Dropbox by the 30th April 2015.
-Your observations on the Group listening.
-The process undertaken to create your master.

Express, as you see fit.


Thank you.
KAyo
Logged
www.kantabiz.com
Business Video Directory

KAyo

  • R/E/P Forums
  • Full Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 237
  • Real Full Name: KAyo
  • Business Videos 24/7
Re: WUMP 28 ( Discussions & Techniques )
« Reply #1 on: April 24, 2015, 12:29:07 pm »

Wow! Am I enjoying this track or what!? :)
Great melodic groove, through a smooth cadence. Good song. Digging it.

The Violinist on distortion is great. (Done this in a shred-jam myself. Takes me back)

Keen to hear all the baked masters ;)


Cheers,
KAyo
Logged
www.kantabiz.com
Business Video Directory

ArtSta

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 40
  • Real Full Name: Artur Stawski
Re: WUMP 28 ( Discussions & Techniques )
« Reply #2 on: April 30, 2015, 05:14:13 pm »

I've got quick t&c type of question, because I am not sure. Delivery in 4416 or the one emerged from the mix ?

Art
Logged

mmarra

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 41
  • Real Full Name: Mike Marra
Re: WUMP 28 ( Discussions & Techniques )
« Reply #3 on: April 30, 2015, 06:29:12 pm »

Hi Wump 28ers, it looks like I won't able to meet the deadline today as it's been too busy lately get time to master this fun mix. I wish I had the time to put forth a submission but I won't be able to until May 9th or so.

I might still master the mix and submit just for fun :)
Logged
Mike Marra (P.Eng)
Joo Carvalho Mastering
http://www.joaocarvalhomastering.com & http://elitemastering.com
Toronto, Canada

KAyo

  • R/E/P Forums
  • Full Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 237
  • Real Full Name: KAyo
  • Business Videos 24/7
Re: WUMP 28 ( Discussions & Techniques )
« Reply #4 on: May 01, 2015, 02:55:10 am »

Hi guys,

I submitted mine.

Yes, it's always 44/16

mmarra, you submit if you like.
Won't be reviewed, but, atleast you engaged with the WUMP team and we appreciate that.

Will start my listening shortly, as I have begun downloading the files.


Ciao'
KAyo
Logged
www.kantabiz.com
Business Video Directory

Hermetech Mastering

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 181
  • Real Full Name: Gregg Janman
  • Manual Gain Rider
Re: WUMP 28 ( Discussions & Techniques )
« Reply #5 on: May 01, 2015, 05:27:16 am »

Fuck, I did it last week, but just plain forgot to upload in time, sorry. Oh well...


[EDIT] I just uploaded anyway, hope that's OK!

KAyo

  • R/E/P Forums
  • Full Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 237
  • Real Full Name: KAyo
  • Business Videos 24/7
Re: WUMP 28 ( Discussions & Techniques )
« Reply #6 on: May 01, 2015, 12:59:10 pm »

Hey, I am just plain happy, you in Hermetech!
Will download yours too. My listening has begun.

Talk soon all.


Ciao'
KAyo
Logged
www.kantabiz.com
Business Video Directory

ArtSta

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 40
  • Real Full Name: Artur Stawski
Re: WUMP 28 ( Discussions & Techniques )
« Reply #7 on: May 01, 2015, 01:13:48 pm »

I have just uploaded 4416 version (I uploaded 4824 yesterday).
Btw. Kayo, it looks like your file is truncated just before the last chorus ends. Could you please check.

Art
Logged

KAyo

  • R/E/P Forums
  • Full Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 237
  • Real Full Name: KAyo
  • Business Videos 24/7
Re: WUMP 28 ( Discussions & Techniques )
« Reply #8 on: May 01, 2015, 03:31:56 pm »

Will check, for sure.. Used Ozone 5 and UAD.
Thanks matey.

KAyo
Logged
www.kantabiz.com
Business Video Directory

Twerk

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 143
  • Real Full Name: Shawn Hatfield
Re: WUMP 28 ( Discussions & Techniques )
« Reply #9 on: May 01, 2015, 08:25:57 pm »

I've *really* wanted to participate in this but work has been bananas. Hopefully the timing is better next time!
Logged

Hermetech Mastering

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 181
  • Real Full Name: Gregg Janman
  • Manual Gain Rider
Re: WUMP 28 ( Discussions & Techniques )
« Reply #10 on: May 02, 2015, 04:50:54 am »

Kayo your file is weird/chopped off at the end/shorter than the others.

fuse

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 20
Re: WUMP 28 ( Discussions & Techniques )
« Reply #11 on: May 02, 2015, 11:41:14 am »

Had a listen to the uploads and was interesting to compare the differences.
Logged

KAyo

  • R/E/P Forums
  • Full Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 237
  • Real Full Name: KAyo
  • Business Videos 24/7
Re: WUMP 28 ( Discussions & Techniques )
« Reply #12 on: May 02, 2015, 02:19:02 pm »

Heads-up. You get judged on the one you submitted. It's unfortunate, if it's got errors# or anomalies.

Nonetheless, to redeem my woopsigoop  :o :-X, I am submitting a second for listening and truncation pleasure. This time Soundforge/ iZotope and nothing else.

Thanks for the heads-up guys.

KAyo
Logged
www.kantabiz.com
Business Video Directory

BiigNiick

  • R/E/P Forums
  • Jr. Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 96
  • Real Full Name: Nick Landis
Re: WUMP 28 ( Discussions & Techniques )
« Reply #13 on: May 02, 2015, 03:04:54 pm »

yes, it has been fun this go around!  i plan to download and give a listen monday.


 -nick

Hermetech Mastering

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 181
  • Real Full Name: Gregg Janman
  • Manual Gain Rider
Re: WUMP 28 ( Discussions & Techniques )
« Reply #14 on: May 03, 2015, 06:44:14 am »

Me too, gonna have a listen to them all tomorrow.

Hermetech Mastering

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 181
  • Real Full Name: Gregg Janman
  • Manual Gain Rider
Re: WUMP 28 ( Discussions & Techniques )
« Reply #15 on: May 04, 2015, 04:21:36 am »

Just took a listen, very high standard as always!

ArtSta, BiigNiick, and Fuse, very nice balance. Fuse, congrats for not pushing it as hard as the rest of us! Kayo, a bit too skewed towards the high end for me. Haven't listened to your second attempt yet.

BiigNiik, just looking at the waveform and would be very interested to know how you got such nice levelling between the different sections, did you do any manual/automated fades?

What I did: 18Hz HPF and 24Khz LPF with Slick EQ on the original file, for headroom. Into analogue chain. Minimal clean compression for bounce/groove, no more than 1.5dB GR. Slight boost at 2k to help push vocals forward a bit, slight cut around 4k for warmth, high shelf boost at 15Khz for air. HPF at 36Hz to try and reduce the boomy bass a bit, LPF at 18kHz for headroom and to avoid limiting distortion later. Then back into PC, dropped the Sum signal by 0.7dB against the Difference for a slight stereo width enhancement, then HPF'd the bass at 61Hz in the Difference channel to centre the bass and give a bit more headroom. Finally into limiter with a maximum of around 3dB of limiting. Then used FinalCD to go from 24/48 to 16/44.

KAyo

  • R/E/P Forums
  • Full Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 237
  • Real Full Name: KAyo
  • Business Videos 24/7
Re: WUMP 28 ( Discussions & Techniques )
« Reply #16 on: May 04, 2015, 11:19:19 am »

Here we go! Listening done.

fuse: Showed great restrain. Sounds smaller than the rest but has a nice listening quality to it overall. No over the top reactions.

Hermetech/ ArtSta/ BiigNiick all have a stronger and louder masters.

Hermetech's is slightly browner, but the high is non troubling.
ArtSta had a more melodic version but, a bigger mid boom to it. Made the piece more engaging though.
BiigNiick has a flatter but a more coherent balance. Bit of everything. Enjoyable though.

Waiting to see what hardware was used here, by all you guys.
_________________________________

On my second master: I used Ozone Izo 5 only in Soundforge. Unlike the first master in Wavelab with Ozone and UAD KHZ and Limiter. My pre-occupation with Headphones, caused a skewed approach. Enjoyed my re-submit thoroughly, but cannot be spoken of here :-X. Personally, I thought keeping it all ITB was better for the piece.

Thanks to Dana and all you guys for the fun times.
I appreciate the jam-ups.


Thanks
KAyo
Logged
www.kantabiz.com
Business Video Directory

BiigNiick

  • R/E/P Forums
  • Jr. Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 96
  • Real Full Name: Nick Landis
Re: WUMP 28 ( Discussions & Techniques )
« Reply #17 on: May 04, 2015, 04:54:11 pm »

 good job everyone!  everything i heard was pretty good.  no ugly ducklings ;-P
here are my notes and my settings.


 -nick




   RMS   Peak   gain
Hermetech   -13.9   0   -.5
good guitar tone.  i like how the vocals come forward in your master, but it may not be as smooth as others.


fuse   -16.2   -.3   0
good punch and clarity.  great dynamics left in the master.  the vocals may be still a bit sibilant for my taste.


KAyo   -14.3   0   -1.9
there's a little pop at the start of your file.  also, it's a bit long on the silence before the music comes in for my taste.  you did a good job keeping the impact of the percussion and openness of the top.


ArtSta   -13.2   0   -3
i feel like things are moving around a bit in this mix.  maybe a compress or pumping a bit? or a multiband something?  not sure i do feel i'm missing a lot of the impact in the percussive elements and clarity missing in the upper mids and top.


BiigNiick   -13.2   0   -3


My Chain and settings:


DAW   PT9 24bit 96kHz
Plugins   Flux ePure II   -3dB @ 65Hz, +2dB @ 72Hz, -2dB @ 950Hz
   Waves R DeEsser   pretty aggressive set around 8kHz
   Lynx AES card
DA   Lavry Blue
TAPE   MCI JH 110C   running ATR 1/2" tape at 30ips +6dB
EQ   Avalon AD2055   -2 @ 100Hz shelf, -2 @ 3.7kHz, +1 @ 25kHz
COMP   Manley Vari-Mu   gentile compression GR < 1dB.  attack very slow, release 2sec
COMP   RND P2 MBP   medium compression GR ~ 1-3dB, ratio  2:1, 60ms attack, release 2sec
AD   Lavry Blue   no A or D sat
   Lynx AES card
Plugins   PSP Xenon   +2dB, -.1 ceiling.  8x oversampling and lookahead enabled
Export 24-96 to DSP Quattro
Export DDP
Import DDP into Sonoris DDP Creater Pro
Export 16-44.1 .wav files





djwaudio

  • Moderator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 224
  • Real Full Name: Dana J White
Re: WUMP 28 ( Discussions & Techniques )
« Reply #18 on: May 04, 2015, 06:29:40 pm »

Cool stuff guys.  I wish I could have played along, but just got back from a nice 10 days on the motorcycle in California.  Glad you enjoyed Tim Snider's track.  He's burnin' on the violin, huh?!
Logged
Respectfully submitted,

Dana J White
Specialized Mastering
www.specializedmastering.com

KAyo

  • R/E/P Forums
  • Full Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 237
  • Real Full Name: KAyo
  • Business Videos 24/7
Re: WUMP 28 ( Discussions & Techniques )
« Reply #19 on: May 05, 2015, 07:52:16 am »

Hi BiigNiick,

That's some great gear!
You can hear the gear's presence in the master.

Tape, Avlon, Lavry, Manley!!
Good stuff mate.

Ciao'
KAyo
Logged
www.kantabiz.com
Business Video Directory

BiigNiick

  • R/E/P Forums
  • Jr. Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 96
  • Real Full Name: Nick Landis
Re: WUMP 28 ( Discussions & Techniques )
« Reply #20 on: May 05, 2015, 04:49:34 pm »


BiigNiik, just looking at the waveform and would be very interested to know how you got such nice levelling between the different sections, did you do any manual/automated fades?




no automation or anything fancy/tricky like that.  just 2 compressors a limiter...  i am interested in how people attacked this mix due to the parts that seemed to stick out in some places but not others.


Hermetech, i'd be interested in how you approached compression in your master.  you mention minimal clean compression with 1.5dB of gain reduction on your compressor and another 3 on a limiter.  what kind of compressor is it?  what kind of attack and release did you decide on and how did you get to that decision?
Hi BiigNiick,

That's some great gear!
You can hear gear's presence in the master.

Tape, Avlon, Lavry, Manley!!
Good stuff mate.

Ciao'
KAyo


yep, i love my gear!  it's very nice working at Terra Nova and with Jerry  you can't forget the Neve Master Buss Processor.  i really think it has made a huge difference in the way i use compression.  before with just the Vari-Mu i had trouble getting control and maintaining punch with dynamics.  the MBP was a great pairing.  a gentile groovy tube comp paired with a clean surgical VCA comp, works well for me.
I used Ozone Izo 5 only in Soundforge. Unlike the first master in Wavelab with Ozone and UAD KHZ and Limiter. My pre-occupation with Headphones, caused a skewed approach. Enjoyed my re-submit thoroughly, but cannot be spoken of here . Personally, I thought keeping it all ITB was better for the piece.


KAyo, tell me more about your ITB setup.  I have wavelab and have seen ozone before, but it's been a decade since i've ventured into soundforge and don't have much experience with UAD stuff.  i know the UAD stuff is well respected.  i don't know anything about KHZ or Limiter you are talking about.  more info would be great! 


a very successful WUMP, everyone!  i always enjoy talking with you guys about this kind of stuff

- nick

Hermetech Mastering

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 181
  • Real Full Name: Gregg Janman
  • Manual Gain Rider
Re: WUMP 28 ( Discussions & Techniques )
« Reply #21 on: May 06, 2015, 03:36:09 am »

Thanks for the info and feedback Nick! Yours was probably my fave version (I want to listen again now!) Do you use one comp for vibe/snap and the other for levelling the RMS more? For the latter, are you using short attack and long release times?

As for me, I have a pair of Chandler Germanium compressors, they were set with a longish attack and a shortish release, low ratio, to groove with the main rhythmic sections, then 'turned down' so no more than about 1.5 GR. I used the 'clean' setting and the R Soft curve for the most transparent results. The limiter was Voxengo Elephant, I have a preset I use that works on about 90% of rhythmic tracks, I just adjust the amount of limiting per track with the input gain.

fuse

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 20
Re: WUMP 28 ( Discussions & Techniques )
« Reply #22 on: May 06, 2015, 09:48:48 am »

My chain was:

Mid/side EQ with UAD camebridge with a -3dB cut at 130Hz at mid to get rid of some dominant bass resonance.
Also a -1dB cut at 700Hz to pull vocals a bit back in the mix.
Next a M/S Ibis to enhance the side in the mid-frequency regions a tad and cut back on the mid of the lower regions.
Next some gentle STC-8 compression with 2dB GR.
After that used the Massive Passive to add a few db to the mid-high and high frequencies (which always sound very natural).
To smooth that a bit further a gentle 1:1,5 compression from the tfpro P38 compressor.
Last in line was Elephant with a +2dB gain just so the peaks would hit just the limiter threshold. (Could easily have added a +6dB gain and got away with, but keeping at K-12 levels was my choice)
AD/DA are Prism Orpheus.

All nice results. My favorite is Hermetech which seems to be more subtle but not as soft as my own version. This track has a few loud sections where a of mid frequencies are happening. To tone that down in a natural way is quite the challenge. As to sibelance it's a mixing issue, IMHO only when it's really bad a ME should fix it.
Logged

ArtSta

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 40
  • Real Full Name: Artur Stawski
Re: WUMP 28 ( Discussions & Techniques )
« Reply #23 on: May 06, 2015, 02:10:41 pm »

Gentlemen,

I'll post details and notes on listening later this week when I get back from a trip. So far I've listened to Hermetech's (and Kayo's v1) and liked how the mix's character was preserved. More info soon.

Btw. Nick, you couldn't hear pumping, mb, etc like things because I did not use compression on the mix :). Maybe you just heard mix issues (there are some like skewed stereo image and over compression on choruses) that naturally got bigger after mastering :). Essentially there was just an EQ used (and a touch of parallel compression mixed at quite low levels- I'll post details and approach).

Art
Logged

BiigNiick

  • R/E/P Forums
  • Jr. Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 96
  • Real Full Name: Nick Landis
Re: WUMP 28 ( Discussions & Techniques )
« Reply #24 on: May 06, 2015, 02:16:47 pm »

Thanks for the info and feedback Nick! Yours was probably my fave version (I want to listen again now!) Do you use one comp for vibe/snap and the other for levelling the RMS more? For the latter, are you using short attack and long release times?


Thanks for the praise ;)


Yeah, kinda like that.  I use the Vari-Mu for vibe and gentile RMS leveling.  Usually under 1dB GR.  attack is almost as slow as it goes, near 70ms.  and the release on the medium setting at 2000ms.  The Neve does more snap/control stuff.  I have the compressor attack set medium around 60ms and  a rather slow release 2000ms again.  the limiter section is VERY fast and not adjustable.  it will catch the first 1/4 cycle of a 20k sine wave!  the only control you have is a threshold, and it touches a few dB.  then into the PSP Xenon limiter adding another 2 dB on this track.  it only occasionally was tapping the digital limiter.


i guess both compressors have rather long release times and medium-slow attacks...


 - nick

BiigNiick

  • R/E/P Forums
  • Jr. Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 96
  • Real Full Name: Nick Landis
Re: WUMP 28 ( Discussions & Techniques )
« Reply #25 on: May 06, 2015, 02:21:19 pm »

Btw. Nick, you couldn't hear pumping, mb, etc like things because I did not use compression on the mix :) . Maybe you just heard mix issues (there are some like skewed stereo image and over compression on choruses) that naturally got bigger after mastering :) . Essentially there was just an EQ used (and a touch of parallel compression mixed at quite low levels- I'll post details and approach).

Art


after reading my comments again, maybe that was not exactly what i meant...  yes, definitely mix issues, but i wasn't comparing to the original mix, just the other masters.  i didn't mean to offend or sound harsh.  yes, i'd love to hear more about your approach.  we all learn from eachother, and this group has been awesome with the WUMP!  it's the only thing like it i've found on the internets.


 - nick

ArtSta

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 40
  • Real Full Name: Artur Stawski
Re: WUMP 28 ( Discussions & Techniques )
« Reply #26 on: May 06, 2015, 06:28:52 pm »

Nick, I didn't take it as offended, harsh or so. I expressed loudly my surprise :). It's always good to have more than single point of view, it's the way to make progress. I'll get back with details and session notes asap.

Art
Logged

Hermetech Mastering

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 181
  • Real Full Name: Gregg Janman
  • Manual Gain Rider
Re: WUMP 28 ( Discussions & Techniques )
« Reply #27 on: May 07, 2015, 03:56:18 am »

fuse, thanks for the praise! less can often be more, i think. i took a pretty light approach with this track. i agree about the sibilance being a mix issue. i thought the vocal was much too sibilant, particular nearer the end of a track, but was loathe to take a de-esser to it. with a real client i would have just suggested they slap one on the vocal track. :)

nick, thanks for the great info again. i only have one outboard comp, and am always using it for snap rather than actual levelling, so this kind of longer term levelling is something i never really do, but am very much interested in how to go about it. i might have to try some experiments with TDR Kotelinokov GE compressor, either before or after the analogue chain, in addition to my regular compression. agree, this is a cool thing for us all to be doing, i always enjoy the process!

art, looking forward to your notes!

KAyo

  • R/E/P Forums
  • Full Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 237
  • Real Full Name: KAyo
  • Business Videos 24/7
Re: WUMP 28 ( Discussions & Techniques )
« Reply #28 on: May 07, 2015, 11:25:12 am »

Kudos to all. Great conversations going on this WUMP thread.
This is what its all about, insights and more insights.

BiigNiick, quick question? I own the NEVE Masterpiece II mastering console, I have always wondered if the MBP sounds somewhat similar. As the masterpiece has those famous Air Montserrat 2 Bus and then the whole Portico series started to follow from there on, and that's always left me wondering. Would love to try one as the Portico is loved etc..

Also, I usually use Wavelab, but due to some farcical issues with live record (Most times, I much prefer to capture a live play through, than render) I encountered issues. The UAD KHZ tool is great (check-out the video) as per the feedback, over zesty usage coupled with the Limiter further punching the walls. The UAD limiter is top notch, youd like it. The render was truncating. Thanks Artsa..

Sound forge is and has always been my trusty editor. Hopefully, others feel the same. Do try it at some point, I am sure youd be pleased. In Ozone, (Big fan of v6), I went for pure EQ, Harmonic Exciter, Dynamics [single Bus] and Maximizer, +1db on the output. Rendered file. Came through good. 2nd time around.


EQ: Bell 120hz +1.2db Q0.3 / Bell 520hz -0.6db Q 2.8 / High Shelf 20khz +1.5db Q1.0
Comp: Ratio 1.5 / Knee 10 / Attack 10ms / Release 100ms /
Limiter: Ratio 10.0:1 / Knee 0 / Attack 5.0ms / Release 100ms /

Threshold Peak -10db to -80db
Mix 100%
Dither Stereo link 100% /  Character 4.6 / Type MBIT+ Ultra 16bit Dither Normal / DC filter ON



Reading the rest of the gangs angle ...

Ciao'
KAyo
Logged
www.kantabiz.com
Business Video Directory

BiigNiick

  • R/E/P Forums
  • Jr. Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 96
  • Real Full Name: Nick Landis
Re: WUMP 28 ( Discussions & Techniques )
« Reply #29 on: May 11, 2015, 02:03:42 pm »


BiigNiick, quick question? I own the NEVE Masterpiece II mastering console, I have always wondered if the MBP sounds somewhat similar. As the masterpiece has those famous Air Montserrat 2 Bus and then the whole Portico series started to follow from there on, and that's always left me wondering. Would love to try one as the Portico is loved etc..



I don't think the MBP sounds a lot like the masterpiece.  I've only messed around with the masterpiece for an hour or so back almost a decade ago and I wasn't too impressed...  I ended up not really following through on spending more time with it...  The MBP is another story.  I was involved in the early design phase and helped with the prototype a bit.  One of my college friends works as a designer at RND, so it was mutually beneficial;)  I LOVE THIS COMPRESSOR!!!  it is so clean and fast.  totally opposite what the Vari-mu is and they work well together for me.


As far as the RND Portico stuff, i was on the fence about it.  the portico II stuff is out of this world good.  you know, if you're into that super clean, larger-than-live Neve sound ;)


 - nick

ArtSta

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 40
  • Real Full Name: Artur Stawski
Re: WUMP 28 ( Discussions & Techniques )
« Reply #30 on: May 15, 2015, 12:19:57 pm »

Gentlemen, I am very sorry for being that late.

First of all really nice track, quite original, interesting male and female voices (especially that one starting at 1m03s).
Ok, the mix. The strong point of the mix was female vocal and relatively dynamic verses with supportive male vocs, and nice, dynamic transitions between verses and choruses. Female vocal has actually real power (but it's a little bit edgy in the mix).
The weak point was stereo image, phase issues and compressed choruses with a vocals on top of them.

The mix was on a little thin side, with a bit weird image (imo too wide a bit, tracks mixed in a way that bright side of guitars and vocs went to the left channel and their body mostly to the right channel), with added some distortions (especially that one at 1m55s) and a kind of phasey/watery sound (i.e. at 0m20s). Oh and 's'-es (they actually made any HF lifting a little bit tricky).

I assumed that the stereo image mixing decisions were intentional for some reason (it's hard to think otherwise based on that what was done).

So I tried to accent the mix's strong points and to bring more guitar melody (focus on guitars tone instead of just plucks). To add some body I used parallel compression that adds nice low/mid weight and some eq tweaks to make the track sound a little less boxy, but more snappy.

The settings:
Parallel compression (ITB) CL 1B:
Th: -12dB
Ratio: 3:1
Att: slow
Rel: almost fast (09:30)
Mix: -22dB at verses, -17dB at choruses.

De-essing ITB, UAD De-esser:
Th: -25dB
Freq: 6.08k
Split: on
Speed: fast

EQ (OTB) 250:
+3dB @30Hz, Q: 0.7
+0.5dB @220Hz, Q: 0.5
-1.5dB @780Hz Q: 2
+1dB @1.2k: Q: 0.5
+2dB (+2.5 at choruses) @18k: Q: 1

The chain: Parallel comp-DAC-250-ADC-DS. Yes, there's no limiter.

And finally I have listened to all of the supplied tracks.
And below are my notes.
I also thought about your notes Nick. First of all, I think that if you're comparing just mastered files with no relation to the original mix actually you have no point of reference. However, this is how people usually compare tracks (i.e during shootout), so your point is also valid and likely is of a real world example.
I've made a little investigation regarding this pumping/moving like effect you reported. It is audible esp. on tambourine when vocals or acoustic instruments come in, vocs also suffer. It looks like mix compression triggered by its events (low content from right channel impacts bright side of it on the left) and also supported by phase issues (some pretty audible at the begining of choruses) again due to mixing the same signals with different freq
content to left and right channels. Anyway, more bright masters (Nick, fuse, Kayo) seem to mask these effects a bit (but imo reveal more phasey highs instead). As I lifted HF (while bringing low mid/mid region for body) to a small extent because I didn't want to affect naturally sounded instruments too much (esp. guitars and tambourine), the effects/issues were just more evident here.

Ok, my notes.

Hermetech:
I like:
- the way you preserved the mix tone, especially vocals body and power, master sounds just bigger!
- microdynamics

I don't like:
- just a touch too boxy (maybe just -0.5dB in 500Hz or so region would likely be it)
- wider image (M/S in action ?) than mix's one (already too wide imho due to vocs existent all over the place)


Kayo:
I like:
- the overall balance, resulting very nice vocals sound (clean, but not tiring, dynamic, but not aggressive)

I don't like:
- a little lack of body (maybe just +0.5 - 1dB in 200Hz region would make it sound perfect)
- a little too much 's'-es


BiigNiick:
I like:
- overall kind of smooth and warm tone,
- no boxiness featured in the mix,
- deessing, very nice one!

I don't like:
- low end, just a touch too much or too much rounding (woolly) or both, transients lost their impact a bit,
- verse to chorus transition lost impact,
- a bit too much perceived highs on verses (perceived because the master is not the brightest, but there's likely a too deep dip in mid/hi-mid region making highs more pronounced), thus tambourine sounds quite unnatural that way
- instruments sound too thin a bit (they lost some body)
- vocals lost their body too, they're now a little too thin (compare them to the mix esp. on choruses),
- solo instrument sections lost their snappyness a bit (again I suppose a little to much mids were cut).


Fuse:
I like:
- overall tone, although on a little thin/edge side, but you've made instruments more snappy, brought more 'air' and vocals more 'in front', so you actually accented good sides of the mix!

I don't like:
- a little too much highs, especially apparent on verses
- a little too much 's'-es
- something is happening at 2m03s-2m07s (kind of distorion- from compression ?, mids brought up could also lift distortion from the mix here)


As I reported some tracks too bright on verses I used just another point of reference (some well mastered recordings) to make sure.
Overall all differences (most found on verses) are on a subtle side, being a subject to taste actually. Well done!

Art
Logged

BiigNiick

  • R/E/P Forums
  • Jr. Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 96
  • Real Full Name: Nick Landis
Re: WUMP 28 ( Discussions & Techniques )
« Reply #31 on: May 20, 2015, 01:17:30 pm »



BiigNiick:
I like:
- overall kind of smooth and warm tone,
- no boxiness featured in the mix,
- deessing, very nice one!

I don't like:
- low end, just a touch too much or too much rounding (woolly) or both, transients lost their impact a bit,
- verse to chorus transition lost impact,
- a bit too much perceived highs on verses (perceived because the master is not the brightest, but there's likely a too deep dip in mid/hi-mid region making highs more pronounced), thus tambourine sounds quite unnatural that way
- instruments sound too thin a bit (they lost some body)
- vocals lost their body too, they're now a little too thin (compare them to the mix esp. on choruses),
- solo instrument sections lost their snappyness a bit (again I suppose a little to much mids were cut).







Art, thanks for all the great feedback!  Lots of things on your don't like list were also on my don't like list too.  Almost all of them were byproducts of fixing other things in the mix and were the lesser of two evils.  the 's'-es on the vocals were one of the biggest struggles.  although i think they were smoothed out well in my master, the casualties of that effort were the solo instrument snappiness (could have bypassed the deesser there maybe?) and the unnatural sounding tambourine. similar things with the smoothness and loosing impact/transients/body etc...  lots of that can be personal preference.  i think the window of acceptability is wide for most masters.  in a perfect world i could fix everything! ;-P




again, i really enjoy the WUMPs.  it's always good to see how other MEs approach the same mix and then have a discussion about it.


thanks everyone,
 - nick









Hermetech Mastering

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 181
  • Real Full Name: Gregg Janman
  • Manual Gain Rider
Re: WUMP 28 ( Discussions & Techniques )
« Reply #32 on: May 21, 2015, 03:19:21 am »

Hermetech:
I like:
- the way you preserved the mix tone, especially vocals body and power, master sounds just bigger!
- microdynamics

I don't like:
- just a touch too boxy (maybe just -0.5dB in 500Hz or so region would likely be it)
- wider image (M/S in action ?) than mix's one (already too wide imho due to vocs existent all over the place)

Thanks for listening and commenting Art! Will have another play and see if a little dip in the lower mids helps things. Yes, I did increase the stereo width with M/S volume (I think it was -0.6 in the M channel), I thought it sounded OK so left it like that, but I can hear what you mean about it being too wide.

KAyo

  • R/E/P Forums
  • Full Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 237
  • Real Full Name: KAyo
  • Business Videos 24/7
Re: WUMP 28 ( Discussions & Techniques )
« Reply #33 on: May 21, 2015, 10:47:27 pm »

Great feedback Art.
Appreciated the walk through and complete insight.

Making the WUMP truly unique.

BiigNick: I have to get my hands on some cool Portico at some point. Thanks for the feedback..


Ciao'
KAyo

Logged
www.kantabiz.com
Business Video Directory

ArtSta

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 40
  • Real Full Name: Artur Stawski
Re: WUMP 28 ( Discussions & Techniques )
« Reply #34 on: May 27, 2015, 01:14:37 pm »

Art, thanks for all the great feedback!  Lots of things on your don't like list were also on my don't like list too.  Almost all of them were byproducts of fixing other things in the mix and were the lesser of two evils.  the 's'-es on the vocals were one of the biggest struggles.  although i think they were smoothed out well in my master, the casualties of that effort were the solo instrument snappiness (could have bypassed the deesser there maybe?) and the unnatural sounding tambourine. similar things with the smoothness and loosing impact/transients/body etc...  lots of that can be personal preference.  i think the window of acceptability is wide for most masters.  in a perfect world i could fix everything! ;-P

Nick, the 'don't like' list maybe just looks like there's lots of things in there, however I think that all of them were the outcome of more or less single decision. I am not sure if it's deesser thing, because it impacts rather high freqs, I would rather bet on mixture of tape and those -2dB @ 950Hz and -2 @ 3.7kHz cuts where the rest of the Wump pack have put more attention (I think that 950 is the important region for these vocals and 3.7k is in presence/snap area). I can see you also set 2s release on compression so it might be possible that compressors were in permanent GR state (btw. I noticed that some gear, even the most known/used one, is usually doing some GR (or modify signal envelope in some way) even if it's not indicated on VUs or display).

We have just different taste and that's good. It could be pretty boring if everybody would response to the same flavor only.
I am pretty sure many listeners would choose your master for the warm tone or tape sound even if some dynamics were impacted.
My approach was different, as I am quite sensitive to acoustic instruments sound (and this was actually an acoustic piece) I focused on instruments tone and some strong points of the mix (like strong female voc, transitions, etc). I'm also moving toward less fixing but more focusing on good elements.

To add more comment, personally I would not choose tape for this project. Tape affects signal envelope, on choruses attacks were already almost completely lost in original mix. Tambourine is pretty demanding for recording (I am always full of big respect to those who mastered acoustics instruments recording, it's and art on and of itself!) and playback equipment as it can have very short but strong attack (depending on instrument usage and artists playing style of course). Unfortunately such an attack was already tamed in the mix, so any smoothing (like that one from tape) actually brings more sustain/decay (and HF) part of tambourine sound and cause its further definition deterioration (well sometimes it is intended to place instrument somewhere in the back).

Bringing HF content up could be also very tricky in this mix, not only because of 's'-es. If you focus on some mid/hi-mid ringing (existent in the mix) you might hear processing in action (like from compression on parts that triggered it) that was rendered to the file during mixdown and can be easily exposed more. I haven't reported it in my dislikes list as I wanted to stay away from obvious (and likely unfixable) mix issues in my opinion.
In this mix tambourine was also mixed to be a little behind vocals. When one brings more HF he/she actually puts this instrument more in front (up to the point it may even sound distracting from the performance), changing the mix balance.
There're also phase issues that add their own to the picture.
So, any HF boosts bring such issues to the table, but in different increments. And that's why I did not play much with HF (well, at the expense of exposing other issues too- and it was actually good observation from you).

Anyway, this was a difficult mix (but great performance). Lots of compromises to choose and/or to make, every single one has its own best context.

Thanks for listening and commenting Art! Will have another play and see if a little dip in the lower mids helps things. Yes, I did increase the stereo width with M/S volume (I think it was -0.6 in the M channel), I thought it sounded OK so left it like that, but I can hear what you mean about it being too wide.

Well, it's not that it sounded bad or so to me. Actually it brought more guitars sustained tone (and verbs) to the sides, as far as I remember. Although it made an image bit wider not many people listen to music in perfect stereo position so they likely would not have a chance to detect center's little deficiency (already existed in a mix to some extent).

Great feedback Art.
Appreciated the walk through and complete insight.

Thanks a lot! This actually encouraged me to write more above!

Art
Logged

BiigNiick

  • R/E/P Forums
  • Jr. Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 96
  • Real Full Name: Nick Landis
Re: WUMP 28 ( Discussions & Techniques )
« Reply #35 on: May 28, 2015, 12:23:39 am »

Nick, the 'don't like' list maybe just looks like there's lots of things in there, however I think that all of them were the outcome of more or less single decision. I am not sure if it's deesser thing, because it impacts rather high freqs, I would rather bet on mixture of tape and those -2dB @ 950Hz and -2 @ 3.7kHz cuts where the rest of the Wump pack have put more attention (I think that 950 is the important region for these vocals and 3.7k is in presence/snap area). I can see you also set 2s release on compression so it might be possible that compressors were in permanent GR state (btw. I noticed that some gear, even the most known/used one, is usually doing some GR (or modify signal envelope in some way) even if it's not indicated on VUs or display).

We have just different taste and that's good. It could be pretty boring if everybody would response to the same flavor only.
I am pretty sure many listeners would choose your master for the warm tone or tape sound even if some dynamics were impacted.
My approach was different, as I am quite sensitive to acoustic instruments sound (and this was actually an acoustic piece) I focused on instruments tone and some strong points of the mix (like strong female voc, transitions, etc). I'm also moving toward less fixing but more focusing on good elements.

To add more comment, personally I would not choose tape for this project. Tape affects signal envelope, on choruses attacks were already almost completely lost in original mix. Tambourine is pretty demanding for recording (I am always full of big respect to those who mastered acoustics instruments recording, it's and art on and of itself!) and playback equipment as it can have very short but strong attack (depending on instrument usage and artists playing style of course). Unfortunately such an attack was already tamed in the mix, so any smoothing (like that one from tape) actually brings more sustain/decay (and HF) part of tambourine sound and cause its further definition deterioration (well sometimes it is intended to place instrument somewhere in the back).

Bringing HF content up could be also very tricky in this mix, not only because of 's'-es. If you focus on some mid/hi-mid ringing (existent in the mix) you might hear processing in action (like from compression on parts that triggered it) that was rendered to the file during mixdown and can be easily exposed more. I haven't reported it in my dislikes list as I wanted to stay away from obvious (and likely unfixable) mix issues in my opinion.
In this mix tambourine was also mixed to be a little behind vocals. When one brings more HF he/she actually puts this instrument more in front (up to the point it may even sound distracting from the performance), changing the mix balance.
There're also phase issues that add their own to the picture.
So, any HF boosts bring such issues to the table, but in different increments. And that's why I did not play much with HF (well, at the expense of exposing other issues too- and it was actually good observation from you).

Anyway, this was a difficult mix (but great performance). Lots of compromises to choose and/or to make, every single one has its own best context.





Thanks, Art.  I like your ideas and approach.  Thinking about a mix and focusing on the strong points rather than focusing on what needs fixed (especially if unfixable) can be a more successful approach.  I find that I frequently focus on the negative things that I think need fixing and from your comments I will consciously try to approach the other.


As far as the tape decision, I did one with and one without tape.  The next day, I listened to both and liked the smoothness and balance of the tape version.  Maybe I would choose the other after considering your comments and listening with a fresh perspective now, who knows?


I always like the WUMPs because I love to hear others critique and discussion of different mastering techniques.


Thanks again, everyone,
 - nick



BiigNiick

  • R/E/P Forums
  • Jr. Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 96
  • Real Full Name: Nick Landis
Re: WUMP 28 ( Discussions & Techniques )
« Reply #36 on: May 28, 2015, 12:24:56 am »

BiigNick: I have to get my hands on some cool Portico at some point. Thanks for the feedback..


give tristian or drew a call and they can send you a demo unit.  let me know if you need contact info.


 - nick

ArtSta

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 40
  • Real Full Name: Artur Stawski
Re: WUMP 28 ( Discussions & Techniques )
« Reply #37 on: May 28, 2015, 09:28:57 am »

Thanks, Art.  I like your ideas and approach.  Thinking about a mix and focusing on the strong points rather than focusing on what needs fixed (especially if unfixable) can be a more successful approach. 

Nick, I think that 'successful' is pretty subjective :). Tape smoothness is definitely in wow factors departement, it's great to quickly impress listeners. However there are some with pretty damn good sound memory and it's hard to cheat them and their sound image. It really depends who is actually encountered, who pays more attention to overall picture, who to details, and who to both matters. As usual- every case is different.
In my approach there are issues too. It's pretty hard to find the proper balance between focusing on strong points and fixing because these both domains fully interact, especially when mix has some flaws. After reading your comments I think I should do one step more to fixing. First time impressions are even more important than the rest.

Looking forward to the next Wump!

Btw. Just quick thought on Wump v2 for the future- listener type of participants, not doing mastering, but critically listening only :). No settings, no approaches, no engaging, no bias, just pure impressions on listening. What do you think ?

Art

Logged

BiigNiick

  • R/E/P Forums
  • Jr. Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 96
  • Real Full Name: Nick Landis
Re: WUMP 28 ( Discussions & Techniques )
« Reply #38 on: May 28, 2015, 10:47:43 pm »

Nick, I think that 'successful' is pretty subjective :) . Tape smoothness is definitely in wow factors departement, it's great to quickly impress listeners. However there are some with pretty damn good sound memory and it's hard to cheat them and their sound image. It really depends who is actually encountered, who pays more attention to overall picture, who to details, and who to both matters. As usual- every case is different.


true.  much in what we do is subjective and depends on what the client wants.





Btw. Just quick thought on Wump v2 for the future- listener type of participants, not doing mastering, but critically listening only :) . No settings, no approaches, no engaging, no bias, just pure impressions on listening. What do you think ?


sounds like a good idea.


 - nick

KAyo

  • R/E/P Forums
  • Full Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 237
  • Real Full Name: KAyo
  • Business Videos 24/7
Re: WUMP 28 ( Discussions & Techniques )
« Reply #39 on: June 06, 2015, 12:34:52 am »

Hi Art..

That listening WUMP is an idea that we could and should venture, absolutely. Like discussing your fav mix+master. I have several, but, a couple that stick out are "No Doubt - Hella Good" That master smashes my brain into pulp. Through a great BOSE system, its jaw dropping. Just speechless. Another is "Debussy Art of noise", I mean talk about class! Instrumentation, Music construction, programming, recording, mixing and mastering. Just stupendous! Truly, a listening pleasure..


For the next WUMP, I have a distinct challenge for the group. RESTORATION!
A classic sounding file.. restored to the best of your ability and tooled back to life.

I sense, you'd enjoy that Art, and so would many others.


On ya' people..

KAyo
Logged
www.kantabiz.com
Business Video Directory

ArtSta

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 40
  • Real Full Name: Artur Stawski
Re: WUMP 28 ( Discussions & Techniques )
« Reply #40 on: June 06, 2015, 01:10:22 pm »

Looking forward! Thanks.

Art
Logged

fuse

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 20
Re: WUMP 28 ( Discussions & Techniques )
« Reply #41 on: June 12, 2015, 08:29:06 pm »

Restauration? Can be a tough job if the material is degraded.

Reminds me of this customer that had an old cassette of him playing the piano.
He couldn't play anymore because of arthritis so that tape was the only thing he had left to remember his music.
Helping such people can be a very fulfilling job.
Logged

KAyo

  • R/E/P Forums
  • Full Member
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 237
  • Real Full Name: KAyo
  • Business Videos 24/7
Re: WUMP 28 ( Discussions & Techniques )
« Reply #42 on: June 19, 2015, 09:00:42 pm »

Now, that sounds like a challenge, fuse. I am sure it was worth the hard restore.
Our is going to be similarly tough. Keep you all posted.


Thanks
KAyo
Logged
www.kantabiz.com
Business Video Directory
Pages: 1 2 3 [All]   Go Up