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Author Topic: WUMP 27 ( Discussions & Techniques )  (Read 10825 times)

alex-p

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Re: WUMP 27 ( Discussions & Techniques )
« Reply #15 on: March 11, 2014, 09:27:35 pm »

ahaha say that to the boss!
i own none of those!

to add something to the downsampling, it depends also if i will do some treatment ITB, if i won't i downsample sometimes before hand.
depends a lot of the music of course, but with acoustic i normally stay at the highest res possible

cheers
Alex
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Hermetech Mastering

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Re: WUMP 27 ( Discussions & Techniques )
« Reply #16 on: March 12, 2014, 08:32:48 am »

Here's my work flow notes on this track.

Overall approach: I am not used to mastering this kind of acoustic/classical/jazz material, so just wanted to see how it would sound passing through my gear, hoping for some kind of euphonic effect! So decided to use very mild settings, going more for the "audiophile" than "effected/processed" sound.

I kept everything at 96kHz until the last stage before SRCing to 44.1 and dithering down to 16 bit.

DAW was AudioMulch. EQ DMGEQuilibrium Butterworth 12dB HPF at 24Hz. TB Dither to 24 bit before hitting Crookwood transfer DAC to analogue chain.

Chandler Germanium Compressors set as clean as they could possibly go, long attack, shortest release, no more than 0.5dB of gain reduction.

With the TC Pullet/ Chandler TG2 EQ combo, I only used the modified high shelf. Boosted 3dB at 12kHz for a bit of high end emphasis/air/stereo width increase etc. TG2 was 35dB of gain.

Bax EQ was HPF at 24Hz, Bass shelving cut 0.5dB at 74Hz, High shelving cut 0.5dB at 2.1kHz, and LPF at 28kHz. I should mention that this is the curve I use that actually gives the FLATTEST response with the preceding pieces of gear in the chain.

Back into AudioMulch via Crookwood ADC. Voxengo MSED set to attenuate the MID channel by 0.3dB for very slight stereo width enhancement (again, this is more like a way to get back the loss of stereo width that the previous pieces can sometimes cause).

Recorded file was then passed though Voxengo Elephant 4.0 in another AudioMulch document, with a maximum of 1.9dB of limiting.

Final limited 32float/96 file was SRCed and dithered down to 16/44 with FinalCD for the end result.

Hermetech Mastering

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Re: WUMP 27 ( Discussions & Techniques )
« Reply #17 on: March 13, 2014, 09:47:14 am »

OK, I'll go first!

These figures gave me a starting place to adjust gains to get a similar perceived volume when comparing:

foobar2000 1.3.1 / Dynamic Range Meter 1.1.1
log date: 2014-03-13 14:04:45

DR         Peak         RMS          Duration Track
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DR11      -0.31 dB   -16.36 dB      4:17 Alex P
DR12      -1.32 dB   -19.18 dB      4:20 Art Sta
DR10      -0.09 dB   -15.08 dB      4:20 Biig Niick
DR11      -4.29 dB   -20.43 dB      4:17 Fuse
DR12      -0.05 dB   -16.57 dB      4:22 Hermetech Mastering
DR10       0.00 dB   -14.27 dB      4:20 Kayo
DR8       -0.67 dB   -13.90 dB      4:20 Michael Hynes
DR11      -0.48 dB   -15.69 dB      4:20 Mike Marra

AlexP -  Lovely, natural sound, first crescendo a little subdued, could hear the compressor working here maybe? Overall great.

ArtSta - Light and airy, noise seems a bit high, seems like more EQ/stereo processing was used than in the other versions?

BiigNiick - Clean, clear and natural, crescendos great and three dimensional, perhaps a little too much limiting?

Fuse - Good overall, although a little thin, and I thought I could hear a patina of "graininess" over the whole thing, mainly in the upper mids/highs, converter maybe? Any reason it is so quiet?

Hermetech Mastering - Mine seems a little dull in comparison with many of the others, maybe I should have boosted the highs more?

KAyo - Very light and airy, overall nice engaging tone, but I worry the high boost brings out the key noise/room noise a little too much? Also, Digicheck is registering digital overs in one place.

Michael Hynes - I liked this version a lot, as it has a similar frequency balance to my own, although it was substantially louder. Too much limiting/loudness to sound completely natural? Slightly "congested" in the busier parts, mainly in the lower mids.

Mike Marra - Lovely, liked this one a lot. Nice stereo width. Warm and natural, highs nice, and not over boosted. My fave of the other entries.

ArtSta

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Re: WUMP 27 ( Discussions & Techniques )
« Reply #18 on: March 13, 2014, 11:02:09 am »

Late to the party as always  ;)
My goal was to make the track sound simply bigger (more like a real thing rather than like a mix, because it is definitely on a thin side) and accentuate main/lead instrument because of its great articulations. The first thing I noticed was the mix sounding boxy (and thus small). This boxiness (with prevailing resonances in just one band) kills the recording space (really nice btw. when cleaned a bit), and this was a foundation of my decisions taken (including some obvious compromises of course like higher noise level).

What I did not address in my master was: a) stereo image (looks like a bit too wide to me- but I would need just more time to play with it), b) I would use a little bit different EQ settings on quiet sections. Due to time constraints I finally used analog chain (not intended primarily), because I work faster with knobs. So I haven't played with different EQ settings this time.

I used 2 EQs and no dynamic processing.
The 1st EQ was MMM (Manley Mini Massive) with transformer bypassed and both LF & HF set to Mini unique curves (shelves), ideal for the purpose. LF was set to 33Hz, medium bandwidth (it's actually quite wide) and level at 9:00 that gives LF boost whith a slight wide dip in mid freqs. HF was set to 16k, medium bandwidth and level at 9:30 that gives HF boost (bringing up some musicians self noises and the noise level) with gentle dip around HFs/MFs.
The 2nd EQ was Sontec MEP250, giving an additional sculpt. What I did was a slight cut (-1.0dB) at 200Hz with Q=2, cut (-2dB) at 800Hz (Q the same) and a little boost at 400Hz and 5kHz (+1dB and +1.5dB respectively, Q .5).
Oh I forgot I rise a level couple of dBs digitally and using P3S ME (class A) compressor (1:1 ratio, no transformer).
And that's it :).

Actually I would provide 2 masters to the client to choose from. One a bit tamed in the presence area (recently had a client who wanted more presence for his lead instrument, so I've made it hereby too) and different eq settings on sections as described above.

Oh, the mix contained rather strong continuous signal at about 25k and above. I wonder what's this ?
I can see that my fades were gone for some reason (it happens from time to time) and I did not fix it- just let you know.

Best
Art
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ArtSta

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Re: WUMP 27 ( Discussions & Techniques )
« Reply #19 on: March 13, 2014, 11:45:13 am »

ArtSta - Light and airy, noise seems a bit high, seems like more EQ/stereo processing was used than in the other versions?

Ahh, Gregg, stereo processing would be the last thing I could think about regarding genre. The slightly wider image is just a result of eq decisions made and recording mics positioning. It definitely needs to be addressed (but it's a Wump  ;)). Actually I think the mix is too wide originally (I attend live events with ensembles like this quite often), but maybe mics could not be placed elsewhere.
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KAyo

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Re: WUMP 27 ( Discussions & Techniques )
« Reply #20 on: March 13, 2014, 03:41:50 pm »

This is good people.
Very informative and engaging.

My observations and working, coming up.


Cheers,
KAyo
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mmarra

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Re: WUMP 27 ( Discussions & Techniques )
« Reply #21 on: March 14, 2014, 07:31:19 am »

Hello fellow WUMP27er's I will add my settings and feedback once I get back into the studio as I am away for a few days.
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KAyo

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Re: WUMP 27 ( Discussions & Techniques )
« Reply #22 on: March 16, 2014, 11:04:17 am »

People, of Wump27!

Felicitations to all. An honourable effort from the group.
The mastering Wump has been an exercise worth venturing into, everytime. I thank Niick for the track and the group for the jam-up! This genre was worth waiting for...

What I noticed, heard, read and learnt was an opportunity to study what different approaches and also an opportunity to listen and affirm the sound of all this great gear within the group on a track just as this!.. Wow! That in-itself was a winner for me. Thank you.


My process was totally minimal and in the box.
File > MD3 > Sonalksis Ultimate-D > 44/16
The restrained veracious solo process journey.

TC:MD3
Input: -1.0db
DC Block: On
Crossovers: 315hz & 3.15khz
Auto gain: Off
RMS crest and Reference level 0.0dbfs

Low cut: 29.70hz    Mid1:87.30hz   Mid2:732hz    Hi shelf: 12.50khz
Cut Butterworth      Gain:+0.7db        -0.5db             +0.5db
                          0.40 oct               4.00 oct          6db slope

Soft clip @ 0.00db
Expander: Low -36.0db  Mid:  High -28.0db
Range: -10db     -10db          -10db
Attack: 1.0ms     1.0ms          1.0ms
Release: 500ms     500ms         1.4s

Compressor: Low -6.0db   Mid -60db  High -16.0db
Ratio: 3.20:1       2.00:1        2.00:1       
Attack: 30.0ms  20.0ms       20.0ms
Release: 700ms   500ms     300ms
Gain: +2db   +1db    0.0db

Limiter: Threshold -0.2db        Release0.10s        Ceiling 0.00db
Trims: +1.0db
Output: -0.0db

Sonalksis Ultimate-D      Application: Mastering   Content: Hybrid         Quantize: 16bit
Dither 44.16

- - - - - - - - - -- - - - - - - - - -


In no particular order, my notes.. without the semantics.


BiigNiick
The warm depth of the master was felt.. The painless mid was poignantly held and there was panache to what I was hearing. Also, well rounded in RMS and overall body. Crucially, the Ďsymphonicí blossoming wasn't lost! My prod would now be to take me out of the room and into the wider open! Letís just lock this-in and seek air!


Mike mmarra
Again, a painless translation like Niickís. On a nice open amp the mids donít hurt and translates unified. The tone is sitting right too and the frame feels good. Some limiting felt, therefore slightly dreary. Pleasant RMS.


Fuse:
Deceptive volume, once cranked (for listening purposes) its pleasantly agreeable! I enjoyed the EQ lime-bitter incalculably! An airy youthful and slightly grainy tone was exposed. An altered justice to the track. Also, the sheer brass orbs to leave it low and expansive, making the amps talk, was amusing and teaching at the same time. Yes, sharp like with low gain than expected, but, I get! "hear hear"


ArtSta:
Sturdy and like a thoroughbred. Velvet structure. I like! Overtime, slightly fatiguing due to its multi-band like sound, and sloped towards the high freq spectrum. Itís got great bass attributes too, just let go of the bands. Nice RMS.


Hermetech:
Yes, I agree. Overly grey and browning drowning. Saying that, underneath lays a good big bodied track, well RMSíed and dynamically quite good [the mids donít hurt and the bass rolled fuller] Under the opaque wrapper lies an agreeable master! I bet..


Alex-P:
Sweet EQ and an analogue like tone that holds a distinguished presence. I do sense the browning, as none of the spectrums are clearly defined, thus, evading timbre clarity of the symphony. A bit more sculpted body and whiteĎer sound would do this great! Good RMS.


Hynes:
You have a good frequency shape adding body and energy to the track, culminating into a large sound! If you could de- congest it a slither and further carve that clear glass effect, this would have been something. Phew.. Good work. Big RMS.



Thanks for the jam-up people!
Ciao,
KAyo
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alex-p

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Re: WUMP 27 ( Discussions & Techniques )
« Reply #23 on: March 16, 2014, 06:00:52 pm »

thanks for the insight Kayo,

i forget to mention that the thursday before i did this, we moved the speakers in the suite and swap the linpinsky for a pair of Atc25, so needless to say it can be slightly confusing, matter of fact, i redid the lp i have done over the weekend before sending it to the client when i listen to it next morning.

having said that i should have listen to this one on monday morning as well before sending it, my fault.

i do appreciate a lot the critics as it helps me to get to know the ''new room'' faster

by browning you mean lack of definition?

i will listen to all of the masters soon and give my comments

cheers

Alex
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KAyo

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Re: WUMP 27 ( Discussions & Techniques )
« Reply #24 on: March 17, 2014, 03:43:26 am »

Hey Alex,

By 'browning' I meant, it was more of an evening dusk moment, when it's beautiful as a singularity mushed softness or as a 'glow!'


And yes, that speaker swaperoo' can seriously throw one out.
The whole perceived hearing palette needs to be somewhat refreshed, much like a sorbet would. I go mono for longer durations than normal plus add idiosyncratic-oddities such as listening to large portions of noises (white/brown/rain/) That's just me! :o

Your insight, is awaited.


Cheers,
KAyo
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KAyo

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Re: WUMP 27 ( Discussions & Techniques )
« Reply #25 on: March 17, 2014, 11:28:41 am »


Oh, the mix contained rather strong continuous signal at about 25k and above. I wonder what's this ?
I can see that my fades were gone for some reason (it happens from time to time) and I did not fix it- just let you know.

Best
Art

Not sure, but, I did feel there was that something. 'Am I hearing something in tandem to the track?' On your mention, I recall having that thought on several occasions. Others may chime in..


Ciao'
KAyo

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KAyo

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Re: WUMP 27 ( Discussions & Techniques )
« Reply #26 on: March 19, 2014, 01:06:19 pm »

More comments to come?
Discussions are keenly awaited Wumper's.


Thanks
KAyo
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mmarra

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Re: WUMP 27 ( Discussions & Techniques )
« Reply #27 on: March 19, 2014, 03:42:26 pm »

Hello all, here at my settings for the track we mastered for WUMP 27:

- All ITB processing
- Nebula Studer 810 tape machine
- DMG EQuilibrium:
    1) high pass filter at 40 Hz
    2) bell cut -0.3 db at 234 Hz with Q = 0.73
    3) bell cut -0.5 db at 3011 Hz with Q = 1.64
- Brainworx Bx EQ:
    1) De-sser at 5 kHz
- Voxengo MSED: -0.3 db mid channel
- Voxengo Elephant limiter EL-4 and ceiling at -0.3

My goal for the track was to warm it up and do my best to control the violin that was out of balance...at least to my liking. I want it to sound as if I was listening to it on a 1930s style radio... :)

I will also take a listen and comment on the other WUMP masters over the next few days as I just got back to the studio and need to catch up on some masters.
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BiigNiick

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Re: WUMP 27 ( Discussions & Techniques )
« Reply #28 on: March 20, 2014, 07:04:38 pm »

wow, everyone did a good job!  it was so fun doing a classical WUMP  :-)  i am pleased to be a part of this group of ME's.  with that said, i gave everyone's track a listen and wrote a few comments as i was listening. . .   i read them back and they may seem a little harsh or critical.  by no means do i mean to come off that way, but we all have places we can improve and it's good to get objective critical opinions on our work.  it's how we grow as engineers.

with that said, here are my thoughts on the different masters i have listened to.  please don't take any criticisms personally.

 - nick


ArtSta     -22.2     -1.3
the dynamics are nice and the level is good.  but, the master is very wide and bright!  way too much processing on this for my taste.  the image is extremely exaggerated.  on second listen, the brightness i think is ok.  the stereo image is what makes me think there is too much done.

fuse     -23.4     -4.3
nice and open feeling.  maybe a touch too bright. . .  i feel some of the dynamics could have been more impactful.  you have 4.3dB of headroom you could have used.  it's free gain, why not use it?

HermetechMastering     -19.5     -0.1
the master i downloaded showed an error in the header…  everything was there, but it gave a warning about the IFF size.  here is the message.
Code: [Select]
The number of bytes described in the IFF size (46199192)
is smaller than the size of the file.  This means there are unused
bytes in this file, which can pose a security risk.
nice.  i'm missing some of the warmth in the midrange of the original track.  it does round out the brass nicely, but i feel it sacrifices some of the clarity.  good dynamics.  everything felt pretty good.

KAyo     -17.3      -0
nice and open sounding.  at first listen, i though it was a little constricted in the louder sections, but i like how it tightened in the low mids in those sections.  i like how it snaps focus in on the soloist.  very musical sounding.

Michael Hynes     -16.9     -0.7
i think this one is too compressed for classical music.  i'm missing a lot of definition and impact on the louder sections.  overall, it feels a little dark.  you did tame down some of the midrange honk on the sax, but it also lost some character there.  not terrible, but more compression that i would have liked to see on a classical track.

mmarra     -18.7     -0.5
nice.  i feel it lost some of the low end impact on the louder sections.  maybe a little too filtered on the low end.  let a little more of the low end come through or slide the HP filter a little lower…


Hermetech Mastering

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Re: WUMP 27 ( Discussions & Techniques )
« Reply #29 on: March 22, 2014, 04:26:30 am »

Hermetech:
Yes, I agree. Overly grey and browning drowning. Saying that, underneath lays a good big bodied track, well RMSíed and dynamically quite good [the mids donít hurt and the bass rolled fuller] Under the opaque wrapper lies an agreeable master! I bet..

Not really sure what you mean, except that it doesn't sound too complimentary!

HermetechMastering     -19.5     -0.1
the master i downloaded showed an error in the headerÖ  everything was there, but it gave a warning about the IFF size.  here is the message.
Code: [Select]
The number of bytes described in the IFF size (46199192)
is smaller than the size of the file.  This means there are unused
bytes in this file, which can pose a security risk.
nice.  i'm missing some of the warmth in the midrange of the original track.  it does round out the brass nicely, but i feel it sacrifices some of the clarity.  good dynamics.  everything felt pretty good.

Thanks for the appraisal, Nick. That's very weird about the header. Can I ask which software was telling you that? Was it in the .zip unarchiving, or a DAW/editor? In 4 1/2 years of professional service, this is the first time anyone has ever mentioned anything like this, so obviously I am quite concerned! Maybe time I updated my 7Zip?
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