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[jnorman]

i am considering purchasing a high quality reverb unit such as the lexicon pcm90/91 or tc electronics m3000 to create realistic space for small chamber groups recorded in a studio setting.  i am currently using the reverbs in my roland VS1880, and am expecting a vast improvement.  couple of questions:

1.  is there is significant reason to buy the pcm91 (going for around $1200 on ebay) rather than the older pcm90 (something like $750 on ebay)?
2.  i have heard the M3000 may be a better choice than the lexicons for small chamber work - any comments on that?
3.  some sales guys are telling me that the newer M300 is damn near as good as the m3000 at way lower cost - can this be true?
4.  the somewhat cheaper lex mpx550 uses the lexichip - does this mean that unit has the same reverbs as the pcm91?
5.  all in all, what do you think is the best buy in a really good reverb?
thanks.

[bobkatz]

jnorman wrote on Fri, 03 September 2004 12:05

i am considering purchasing a high quality reverb unit such as the lexicon pcm90/91 or tc electronics m3000 to create realistic space for small chamber groups recorded in a studio setting.  i am currently using the reverbs in my roland VS1880, and am expecting a vast improvement.  couple of questions:

I know I'm going to alienate a lot of people here, but I've always found the Lexicons to be less able to produce a naturalistic sense of depth and space. I've narrowed it down to their approach to not really producing early reflections, just a bunch of delays that don't really simulate a room space.

Thus, over the years, initially I was more a fan of the EMT "cluster" approach and later on, the TC Electronics reverbs. The Lex's remained for rock and roll special effects, and their tails were always very nice. I wouldn't kick a 480L out of bed, but I'd go for a TC System 4000 any time because of its natural simulation of the directionality and early reflections in a real room. Send it a stereo signal, and it will enhance the localization of each instrument as it actually simulates "leftward" and "rightward" leaning instruments due to their proximity to one or another side wall. At this point, for chamber music and natural space, I'd recommend a TC System 4000 or 6000. It is a significant advance over the 3000 with a true stereo reverb as opposed to mono in/stereo out.

Then, there are the new genuine rivals to the TC's supremity, and at a much lower price. (So now I can alienate my friends at TC...). These are the Convolution verbs from Audioease, Waves, and there's a freeware unit out there that I have to try. If you get a great sample, you can end up with as convincing a space as you can get with the TCs.

Well, that's my opinion.



1.  is there is significant reason to buy the pcm91 (going for around $1200 on ebay) rather than the older pcm90 (something like $750 on ebay)?
2.  i have heard the M3000 may be a better choice than the lexicons for small chamber work - any comments on that?
3.  some sales guys are telling me that the newer M300 is damn near as good as the m3000 at way lower cost - can this be true?
4.  the somewhat cheaper lex mpx550 uses the lexichip - does this mean that unit has the same reverbs as the pcm91?
5.  all in all, what do you think is the best buy in a really good reverb?
thanks.[/quote]

[Roland Storch]

That is also my experience with lexicon. The M4000 is more realistic.

But there is even a more realistic reverb from Quantec - the Yardstick 2402. I have them both. The M4000 is great and versatile. The Yardstick is less versatile, less adjustable parameters, but you do not need all these many parameters to get a more realistc reverb than with the M4000 - regardless how you manipulate it.

But to be honest, the difference is not big.

The M3000 has less convincing reverbs and the PCM91 can sound good, if you have enough time to find the right parameter settings for creating an almost natural sounding reverb. But then the M4000 or Yardstick will still be mor natural.

[Greg Youngman]

Roland Storch wrote on Sat, 04 September 2004 04:36

That is also my experience with lexicon. The M4000 is more realistic. But there is even a more realistic reverb from Quantec - the Yardstick 2402. I have them both. The M4000 is great and versatile. The Yardstick is less versatile, less adjustable parameters, but you do not need all these many parameters to get a more realistc reverb than with the M4000 - regardless how you manipulate it. But to be honest, the difference is not big. The M3000 has less convincing reverbs and the PCM91 can sound good, if you have enough time to find the right parameter settings for creating an almost natural sounding reverb. But then the M4000 or Yardstick will still be mor natural.

I haven't heard 'em all, but I heard the Quantec Room Simulator(QRS) when it came out.  I was blown away.  I couldn't afford one at the time.  How does the Yardstick compare (sonically) to the QRS?

[bobkatz]

I've heard great things about the Quantec, but never auditioned it myself.

[Level]

I am rather convinced; for close to the same cost of a really good reverb, one can build an actual chamber and have the very best. YMMV of course. The best I have used was the R7 Sony.

[plenky]

i have not switched on my 480 in about 6 months...
the tc M5000, Sony R7 and Spacedesigner are my first choice for realistic reverbs.

Also, one very underrated Unit is the Roland R-880, very dense small and medium rooms.

...best to all

[Eric Bridenbaker]

[quote title=bobkatz wrote on Fri, 03 September 2004 12:52]

jnorman wrote on Fri, 03 September 2004 12:05

I wouldn't kick a 480L out of bed, but I'd go for a TC System 4000 any time because of its natural simulation of the directionality and early reflections in a real room. Send it a stereo signal, and it will enhance the localization of each instrument as it actually simulates "leftward" and "rightward" leaning instruments due to their proximity to one or another side wall. At this point, for chamber music and natural space, I'd recommend a TC System 4000 or 6000. It is a significant advance over the 3000 with a true stereo reverb as opposed to mono in/stereo out.

This seems to be a crucial element in simulating a soundfield.
Haven't tried the 6000, but any unit that can do this must have an extra notch of realism.

I've been very impressed with the convolution approach - Extremely realistic impulses of real spaces, plates and hardware. (There are even a few impulses of the TC 6000 floating around out there.)  

I can't be certain whether a single impulse file is capable of a true stereo effect on a panned source. For that you might need to have multiple impulse files taken from different points in the space (or at least separate delay controls for left and right).

Does anyone know if the Waves IR can do this?

In any case there may be some wisdom in creating impulses of the actual rooms and studios that were used on a project, just to have the room sound readily available for the mixing and mastering sessions.


BTW - I'm a new member to the forum - used to read it a while ago. Figured I'd join in on the fun. Thanks to George and everyone else involved. Forums such as these are raising the quality of recordings everywhere.

Cheers,
Eric

[Bob Olhsson]

GY wrote on Sat, 04 September 2004 09:46

How does the Yardstick compare (sonically) to the QRS?

Supposed to be as good or better only no A to D or D to A converters are supplied.

[Glenn Bucci]

I have heard most people say the same thing about the Lexicon reverbs. They are not as acurate as the TC Electronics 4000 for instance, however they have a nice smoothness to them, compared to the 4000. However now with the SIR conv. reverb that is free, it appears that it (with the Lex reverbs) sound just as good as the real thing.

[Fletcher]

For years I have hated "verb-in-the-box"... but then I met the Kurzweil KSP-8 and all was forgiven... then earlier this year I worked at a joint with a t.c. 6K and a KSP-8... it reaffirmed my affection for the KSP-8 [while making me wonder why people spent the money they spent on t.c. 6k machines]

[George Massenburg]

bobkatz wrote on Fri, 03 September 2004 11:52

[...] I know I'm going to alienate a lot of people here, but I've always found the Lexicons to be less able to produce a naturalistic sense of depth and space. I've narrowed it down to their approach to not really producing early reflections, just a bunch of delays that don't really simulate a room space. [...]

I'd just like to echo the sentiment here.  The Lexicon stuff almost without exception is some of the worst reverb I've ever heard for the money (I mean, the Microverb is complete drek, but it's sooo CHEAP who would dare complain?).  Somehow, it's been venerated as some kind of "expert" reverb.  It's not.

I believe the problem is that they've stuck with an extraordinarily low-resolution basic reverb algorith based, among other things, on really low-resolution (i.e., a 16 x 8 multiplier) math.

GM

[Greg Youngman]

Years ago, I built a reverb using a 4 x 8 sheet of steel plate.  It was suspended within a 2x4 frame.  The driver was a "full-range" speaker.  The voice coil was in direct contact with the plate by means of a cardboard tube.  The pickups were piezo into preamps.  They were mounted to the plate with clamps and could be positioned anywhere for the desired length decay and separation.  It took some tuning and tweaking, but it sounded good.  Lots of peaks and valleys in the response.  Character.  

[Roland Storch]

Bob Olhsson wrote on Sun, 05 September 2004 00:53

GY wrote on Sat, 04 September 2004 09:46 How does the Yardstick compare (sonically) to the QRS? Supposed to be as good or better only no A to D or D to A converters are supplied.

Exactly.
It is as good as the old QRS without AD and DA converter and with less different rooms like garbage can and other rooms useless for real music. That is why the QRS was almost in every film studio for real sounding rooms. Unnatural sounding ambience is more disturbing in a movie than in a music album. Because of this reduction of features the yardstick is very cheap compared to the QRS and is about the same price as the M4000.

There will be new Yardstick models coming the end of this month with 96k (the current model supports only 44,1 and 48k) with stereo in/out and to other models with 2 channel in and 6 channel out and a real surround model with 6 inputs and outputs.

The stereo only version is said to have optional analog in/outs.

[Glenn Bucci]

Quote:

I'd just like to echo the sentiment here.  The Lexicon stuff almost without exception is some of the worst reverb I've ever heard for the money (I mean, the Microverb is complete drek, but it's sooo CHEAP who would dare complain?).  Somehow, it's been venerated as some kind of "expert" reverb.  It's not. I believe the problem is that they've stuck with an extraordinarily low-resolution basic reverb algorith based, among other things, on really low-resolution (i.e., a 16 x 8 multiplier) math. GM

Why is it then that so many people love the Lexicon PCM 90? What sound does it give that many love?