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Author Topic: Which Neumann M49 Version Do I have ?  (Read 24424 times)

electricsky

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Which Neumann M49 Version Do I have ?
« on: May 22, 2013, 09:30:08 AM »

I bought this M49 recently but i'm not sure of the version it is !
I was sold this mic as an M49C then when i opened it, i thought it was an early M49 as there is no tag board with 50/200 ohm settings
but the seller now says it's  an M49 converted to C  and that the small red dot after M49 means it been converted to  C !
But when i search on the net, i found out that the little red dot means it left the factory wired  for 50 ohm, so i don't really know what to think !
It's the version without selector on the mic but from the power supply , with M7 capsule and what seems to be an AC701 tube.
Could you tell me what version it is and if i can switch it to 200 ohm as seeing teh output level , i would tend to think it's wired for 50 ohm !
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electricsky

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Re: Which M49 version is it ?
« Reply #1 on: May 22, 2013, 09:33:51 AM »

I would tend to think it's an early version , not a B  or C as there is no tag board to select 50 or 200 ohm and i see only one setting  possible although i might be wrong (These verification things before posting make me crazy ...) !
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electricsky

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Re: Which M49 version is it ?
« Reply #2 on: May 22, 2013, 09:41:08 AM »

Here's what seems to be an AC701.
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klaus

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Re: Which M49 version is it ?
« Reply #3 on: May 22, 2013, 12:31:24 PM »

Judging by the components, wiring material and parts layout, this is a pre- "b" or "c" M49 model, with a retrofitted "c" cathode biasing, and a replaced or refurbished head basket and bottom bell (notice the shiny metal next to the pitted bottom connector sleeve).
When the body work was done, was probably when the i.d. plate might also have been replaced or modified:

As this M49 shows a late version of the C49/1 transformer, thus lacking the BV11 transformer with the 50/200Ω switchable secondary, it was made before June 1956, and therefore the red dot is a fake, unless the transformer was custom-wound to 50Ω by Neumann, sometime after ca. 1958, when, to my knowledge, the red dot that identifies factory-delivered 50Ω mics was first used.
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Klaus Heyne
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usattler

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Re: Which M49 version is it ?
« Reply #4 on: May 22, 2013, 04:18:12 PM »

I concur with Klaus: this microphone was most likely manufactured before 1956 (probably after 1954) as evident by the red pilot light cover/crystal where later versions after around 1962 sported the Neumann diamond. Also, the serial number is below 1600 - after which the b-version started. Actually there was never an a-version! Microphones below serial number 1600 simply were M49, without any suffix. This specimen apparently was subsequently modified to the biasing scheme of the c-version. Even early output transformers of this microphone with the Telefunken AC701k (instead of the Hiller MSC2 used in the very first M49) tube featured a dual secondary, and it is likely that the selector board was removed along the way and the output directly hard wired. Follow the leads to pins 1 and 2 (AF out) to the transformer and you may discover whether the secondaries are wired in series (200 Ω or parallel (50 Ω).
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Uwe Sattler
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electricsky

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Re: Which Neumann M49 Version Do I have ?
« Reply #5 on: May 23, 2013, 08:00:30 AM »

Thanks very much for your answers !
It sounds even more weird and complicated than i would have thought, i'm not even sure i understood all you wrote; i will read it again but from what i understand , this might be an early version , converted to C (cathode bias)  but you seem to say it still has an early CT 49/1 transformer !
Was the early transformer possible to wire for 50 and / or 200 ohm , as for the BV11  or was it only having one secondary wired at the factory for ?? ohm ?

Also, Mr Heyne seem to say the  mic has only one secondary if i understood it all and seeing the output level, i would tend to think it's wired for 50 ohm ( the red dot , if done by Neumann as the seller seems to say , would  confirm that i suppose) but the other person seems to say it has a dual secondary and that it could be wired for 50 or 200 ohm , so i'm not sure what to  think !
I thought part of the C specifications is to have 50 and 200 ohm on top of the biasing method that gives a better  noise floor or so !

From what i read , some people tend to think the early transformer was sounding quite good, so maybe it's not a bad thing i still have the early transformer ?

So, what is the difference now , with a real C (apart from those who have a selector on the mic body) apart from teh different transformer , is it just  the fact i might only have one secondary ?
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usattler

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Re: Which Neumann M49 Version Do I have ?
« Reply #6 on: May 23, 2013, 08:30:06 AM »

The transformer question can not be reliably answered without closer insopection by a knowledgeable and qualified technician. The photographs are simply inconclusive on this topic, and since it is clear that this specimen experienced some 'intervention' and modifications during its nearly 60 years, who knows?... The photos reveal at least that these services appear to have been carried out expertly.
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Uwe Sattler
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klaus

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Re: Which Neumann M49 Version Do I have ?
« Reply #7 on: May 23, 2013, 01:44:41 PM »

I concur with Uwe, and add:
The transformer model that is shown in the picture was not switchable, as it only had one secondary.

It's quite easy to determine whether you have a 50Ω secondary on your transformer: do a resistance test, where you measure the resistance between output connector pins 1 and 2. Then report back.

The 'C' spec of later M49 had a lot of changes built into the model: low end cut, improved noise floor, improved headroom, etc.
But I also agree that the early M49 have a very attractive tone which, with the right owner, can make up for some of these later changes.
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Klaus Heyne
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electricsky

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Re: Which Neumann M49 Version Do I have ?
« Reply #8 on: May 23, 2013, 03:34:02 PM »

Thanks for youer answers.
Which output connector ?
I don't really understand, do you mean on pin 2 and 3 of the xlr connector that goes out of the power supply  (i got the original power supply + another power supply stamped Teldec , with an xlr connector instead of the standard connector found on the original ones ) ?

Do you mean  it might have been  a good idea to upgrade this early M49 to "C" version if it has been done correctly , to get the tone of the early ones with some specs from the C version ?
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klaus

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Re: Which Neumann M49 Version Do I have ?
« Reply #9 on: May 23, 2013, 04:10:29 PM »

You could measure at the 3-pin XLR connector of the power supply between pins 2 and 3, but I prefer you measure the resistance at the actual male mic connector, mounted at the bottom of the mic.

Modification of any tube operation to 'C' -type cathode biasing has some sonic changes associated with it: any tube biasing contains a frequency equalizing component. I'd suggest, to leave the current set-up alone, fat least for the time being. It is a good starting point and compromise between good sound and low noise in an M49.
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Klaus Heyne
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electricsky

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Re: Which Neumann M49 Version Do I have ?
« Reply #10 on: May 24, 2013, 06:46:01 AM »

I'd suggest, to leave the current set-up alone, fat least for the time being. It is a good starting point and compromise between good sound and low noise in an M49.

Thanks for your answer.
i have no will to modify anything for the moment, except maybe have the capsule reskinned by Mr Thiersch, especialy as when i opened the mic box when i received it, the mic was making a noise " gling, gling , gling ...' coming from under the grill , next to the capsule !
There was a little metal ring moving inside  under the grill next to the capsule and  i wondered what it was as  saw no reason to see this part here !
The seller said it was coming from the top  , inside the grill and that it got unsoldered during shipment but Mr Schneider at Sennheiser/ Neumann, told me that this little metal ring  should not be used for a M49, only for  M50, so i don't  know why the seller put it here , as obviously, it made 2 or 3 little dings in the capsule ( it could gave ruined it totaly knowing the thickness  !) !

Also, the output level doesn't seem  very high, i have to compare with some other mics but i thought it was wired for 50 ohm at first but the  seller says it's wired for 200 ohm and Mr Schneider  answered me after i sent  hilm several pictures of the mic :
" It's the old transformer, no rewiring to 50 ohms " .

The seller sold it to me as a M49C , without other explanations but that's not exactlyt what it is !
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klaus

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Re: Which Neumann M49 Version Do I have ?
« Reply #11 on: May 24, 2013, 01:40:28 PM »

Your mic was obviously manipulated more than initially revealed.

About that mystery ring: All M50 mics used a 40mm Plexiglass sphere surrounding the omni capsule. To prevent the Plexiglass ball from hitting the inside of the mic's conical head basket, a cylindrical rubber nipple was installed on the top of the ball that fit into a cylindrical guide ring (shown in the picture). The ring was hard-soldered to the inside top of the basket (you should still find remnants of the attachment/solder inside the basket, at the top). With the Plexiglass ball stabilized that way, body shock could no longer whiplash the capsule and its Plexiglass ball against the head basket's walls.

As this guide ring was only attached to M50, someone sold you an M50 head basket for your M49, instead of an M49 basket, and replaced the white M50 jewel with a red one.

This confirms earlier suspicion that your mic was put together from different parts, in addition to sporting a non-conforming i.d. plate.

P.S.: I'd be careful with premature capsule diagnosis: hearing "gling, gling, gling" is an insufficient method to pinpoint capsule or diaphragm failure. As no aftermarket reskinner can accurately reproduce the glorious sound of an original M7, please consult with a qualified technician before assuming the capsule is at fault, and that it is unrestorable in its current, stock, configuration.
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Klaus Heyne
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electricsky

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Re: Which Neumann M49 Version Do I have ?
« Reply #12 on: July 02, 2013, 05:05:39 PM »

Thanks very much for your answer Klaus (sorry for the delay) !
I didn “t say the capsule is not working but it has 2 or 3 physical dents on the thin " skin" what bothers me as it was in correct condition apart from that !
I didn “t have much time to try it for the moment as i have several things to deal with (including finding a good place to instal the recording studio...)
I don “t know what to do with it if the capsule still seems to work correctly despite the damages !
Maybe keep it this way if it works but i'm extremely angry at the seller , cause he didn “t want to hear about the problems he created (and also as it“s some money !) and i could not find a solution with him to resolve the problem (dishonnest seller !); on top of the fact i dońt like to have a mic  with a damaged capsule !

What about the earlier ones that have the capsule holder made of transparent plastic and not made of metal  , no problem of any sort with those transparent plastic capsule  "foot" / holder ?
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klaus

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Re: Which Neumann M49 Version Do I have ?
« Reply #13 on: July 02, 2013, 10:44:45 PM »

Small nicks in diaphragms usually do not cause serious trouble. But a close-up picture of the affected area might confirm that better than just speculating.

Quote
What about the earlier ones that have the capsule holder made of transparent plastic and not made of metal

Original M49 capsule mounts are always made of metal. Maybe you meant something else?
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Klaus Heyne
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electricsky

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Re: Which Neumann M49 Version Do I have ?
« Reply #14 on: July 04, 2013, 08:58:00 AM »

I meant made  ( the base , just under the capsule , that holds the capsule ) of transparent plastic like that (see picture ,sorry i couldn't load it better than that yet)
Unfortunately ,the time i asked about it and tried to deal with a problem with my credit card and the mic got sold ; i' m quiet disapointed as i was looking for another like mine to make a pair for a correct price ...
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klaus

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Re: Which Neumann M49 Version Do I have ?
« Reply #15 on: July 04, 2013, 05:54:02 PM »

Try a better picture, please. I cannot comment on a blurry picture.
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Klaus Heyne
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electricsky

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Re: Which Neumann M49 Version Do I have ?
« Reply #16 on: July 05, 2013, 04:46:34 PM »

As you see, this one is not made of metal but made of transparent plastic !
I' m so disapointed to have missed it , i need another early one (in good shape and for a realistic  price )to make a pair but as i had never seen one with this capsule base, i wanted to make sure it was ok , knowing i already had some surprises with the first one !
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klaus

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Re: Which Neumann M49 Version Do I have ?
« Reply #17 on: July 05, 2013, 05:43:29 PM »

Try a better picture, please. I cannot comment on a blurry picture.
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Klaus Heyne
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electricsky

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Re: Which Neumann M49 Version Do I have ?
« Reply #18 on: July 06, 2013, 06:08:29 AM »

Hi Klaus,
Sorry, i'm using an Ipad for a few days and i don't know how to do with it, to take a picture of the screen with it !
I will do it from my computer and see if i can upload the picture in a bigger size but unfortunately , the mic is sold anyway so it's too late for me...
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electricsky

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Re: Which Neumann M49 Version Do I have ?
« Reply #19 on: July 06, 2013, 07:25:24 AM »

here are some bigger pictures !
i wonder if the capsule holder is really original or if it's something done to repair it ?
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klaus

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Re: Which Neumann M49 Version Do I have ?
« Reply #20 on: July 06, 2013, 01:29:15 PM »

You should be glad you missed buying this "M49".
The capsule mount on this mic was probably formed by hand from acrylic or other plastic, to replace a missing or broken original M49 mount (the original one is shown on your very first picture, at the beginning of this thread: a hard rubber column buttressed on each end by a vulcanized nickel-plated, treaded brass cap; it's the only kind of capsule mounting base Neumann ever used on any M49).

Besides this amateur contribution, the mic contains many after-market components, including the capsule, which looks like an MG Mylar job.
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Klaus Heyne
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electricsky

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Re: Which Neumann M49 Version Do I have ?
« Reply #21 on: July 06, 2013, 04:01:37 PM »

Thanks very much for your help Klaus, it' s nice from you to take the time to help people ,  to avoid problems, with your knowledge ; i appreciate !
That said, that's exactly what i have been thinking since last night as the  more i was looking at it , the more i was finding it weird compared to the other M49 pictures i saw ! Lol
But as i have bought a pair of pre's from that guy recently, that seemed to be all original and he told me the mic was original as well, so i had no reason to do not believe him.

 As i had never seen a m49 capsule holder like that, i prefered to check on this forum to be sure, knowing i already had a few problems with the 1st i bought !!
If i had not had  some problems with the first , i might not have been as careful, searching to confirm that, as the guy seemed so sure of what he was saying !
Once again, i see it' s obviously better to verify and this is getting truer and truer as there are more and more mispresented items for sale on internet/ebay than a few years ago it seems !

Sure, i prefer to know what i buy before i pay and  i also prefer to find one that has not been repaired like that but as mine is an early one (modified to c ) with early transfo, i ' d like to find another early one and this one was having this same early transfo it seems .
But i hate to receive something that is not as specified, especialy for that price , so it' s better i didn't buy it thinking it was all original ! Lol
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electricsky

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Re: Which Neumann M49 Version Do I have ?
« Reply #22 on: July 06, 2013, 04:16:03 PM »

Where you see there is a problem with a seller, it is when you tell him what he's selling is not original , that he tells you he will specify it in the listing and reduce th price accordingly but when you come hack 3 weeks later , the item is still specified the same way , for the same price !

The guy (langloge / ebay ) who sold me the first one, still tries to justify that some M49 have the little metal ring under the grill whereas only M50 has it to hold the top of the capsule( to avoid it moves seeing it's size and weight i guess ) and i sent him a picture to proove it but he refuses to accept the truth !
Also, no way to make him accept an early M49 ,partly modified to c. Version, is not a true  M49C (different transformer, different capsule and still different circuit i believe !) !
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J.J. Blair

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Re: Which Neumann M49 Version Do I have ?
« Reply #23 on: July 08, 2013, 02:33:02 PM »

Wow.  I can't believe that somebody tried to attach at MG plastic mount to the housing like that.  What is wrong with people?
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shirk

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Re: Which Neumann M49 Version Do I have ?
« Reply #24 on: October 31, 2013, 03:41:39 PM »

Resurrecting an old thread here as I just purchased an M49 and am trying to establish it's age.  I'd also like to figure out how much work has been done to it over the years. (See pics below)

Based on the switchable 200/50 ohm impedance board by the transformer and the circuit board that sits below the capsule, I'm assuming I have an M49 b/c.  I'm a bit curious about the black paint or whatever it is on the inside of the clear plastic housing below the capsule.  I was discouraged when I first saw that as I expected it to be clear plastic.  I think I can see the tube in there if I shine a flashlight at just the right angle.  I can see the beginning of the word "Made"  as well as an "A" further down the tube.  I was hoping to verify the presence of an AC701(K?) but I realize these pictures are inconclusive.

I'll assume the capsule is a later version (nylon ring) Neumann K49. 

The tuchel multi-pin connector seems to be different than the original design. 

For what it's worth, the mic sounds great! Big bottom, not too bright.  A tad darker than my Telefunken U67...but not in a bad way at all.  So far I really like it.  Only downside is that I'm getting some RF noise from a local FM station here in Chicago.  The cable is a double shielded Champagne cable.  Any suggestion or solving the RF issue? 


You thoughts and input would be greatly appreciated. 

Kindest regards,

Stephen

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shirk

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Re: Which Neumann M49 Version Do I have ?
« Reply #25 on: October 31, 2013, 03:42:55 PM »

More pics
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Uwe

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Re: Which Neumann M49 Version Do I have ?
« Reply #26 on: November 01, 2013, 09:09:19 AM »

The microphone depicted is the M249, as evident by the T3470 connector (better RF-shielding) in place of the T3052 of the original M49. This model was manufactured between 1961 and 1974, and judging by the K49 capsule it looks like from the mid 1960s. BTW, the black coating on the inside of the clear plastic is original for most M249 and M250. Manufacturing date inquiries can be answered with more authority through the corresponding link in the forum of the Neumann website.
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klaus

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Re: Which Neumann M49 Version Do I have ?
« Reply #27 on: November 01, 2013, 12:14:36 PM »

There are so many non-original, non-period-correct parts on this mic, it reminds me of the photo contests I first saw in the German TV guide 'Hör Zu', and which is still popular (People Magazine):

The contest: find the non-original/non-period-correct items on this mic (I counted ten)!

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Klaus Heyne
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soapfoot

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Re: Which Neumann M49 Version Do I have ?
« Reply #28 on: November 01, 2013, 12:40:50 PM »

For one thing, I spy a Solen "Fast" metallized film capacitor, and a Caddock thick film resistor. Neither of these parts are original or era-correct.

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shirk

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Re: Which Neumann M49 Version Do I have ?
« Reply #29 on: November 01, 2013, 09:21:08 PM »

Thanks for the comments so far.  I'm eager to learn more about my Frankenstein M-249.  Regardless of originality or era-correctness, it sounded really nice this afternoon on a vocal.  I'd be interested to learn more about what components are non-original and what steps might be taken to get original (sounding) replacement components.  Luckily this mic was priced appropriately and can be returned if I decide it's not for me.  But based on the sound I think I'll keep it. 

Thanks for you time.



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shirk

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Re: Which Neumann M49 Version Do I have ?
« Reply #30 on: November 02, 2013, 07:34:48 PM »

A few more pics to get you past TEN, Klaus! 
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shirk

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Re: Which Neumann M49 Version Do I have ?
« Reply #31 on: November 02, 2013, 07:38:23 PM »

I'm also wondering if this bulbous shaped foam pillow that the transformer rests on is a home-made job as well.  It seems to position the capsule a bit higher in the grill than I'm seeing elsewhere. 
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klaus

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Re: Which Neumann M49 Version Do I have ?
« Reply #32 on: November 02, 2013, 09:58:39 PM »

OK, now I am at 20+.
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Klaus Heyne
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Uwe

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Re: Which Neumann M49 Version Do I have ?
« Reply #33 on: November 04, 2013, 09:13:04 AM »

Rather than dismissing this specimen as non-original, I prefer to look at it as lovingly and very expertly rebuilt with technically superior, or at least much more expensive components in place of those available more than 50 years ago. With the sound primarily shaped by the apparently authentic capsule, tube and output transformer, it should be the result that counts! ... unless the goal is to sell it to a museum instead of applying it to its original purpose, namely as a creative tool to produce pleasant recordings ...
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klaus

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Re: Which Neumann M49 Version Do I have ?
« Reply #34 on: November 04, 2013, 12:26:06 PM »

Uwe, I am not sure there even exists a museum that buys and exhibits Neumann mics. This is a working tool, priced for its sonic excellence and peculiar timbre.

We can debate whether the effect on price of the presence of original components is reasonable or not, but any observer of the vintage microphone market will agree: The bulk of vintage mic buyers and users appreciate originality, and will always pay a premium for it. The intrinsic (usable) value of vintage mics is only a portion of the overall valuation. The discount can be huge (more than 50% in some models), even when the mic was lovingly restored.

The considerable depreciation in value of this particular mic over an all-original is due to the presence of two issues:

1. Mishmash of M249 and M49 body components (this would be anything but a "very expertly" approach to vintage microphone restoration, in my book, despite the clean component layout and solder work present).

2. Lots of new, and differing materials, of electric components which affect the overall timbre of the mic: the choice of coupling capacitor alone is debatable-just ask the Bosch aficionados; installing high-Ω metal film resistors would also not be something I would choose, if I was after the warm and mellow sound of an M49. All this would be worse, without the presence, as you say, of Neumann transformer, capsule, Telefunken tube.

Some more details:
The mic (probably exiting the factory as a 1956/57 M49) has an M249 connector, but an M49 i.d. plate. The connector was mounted after the fact, and with Phillips screws, so was the added 'C' cathode circuit. The capsule is a 1990 version of a K47fet, possibly a K49. There is not a single original electronic component visible anywhere. The Solen coupling cap (a metalized polyprop) is of marginal quality in this application. I already mentioned the questionable metal film resistors. The rubber collar amp suspension is completely dried up, bulging upwards, from the weight of the hanging mic; this deterioration probably put stress on the original lacquer wiring, and probably caused the need for a completely new umbilical (white wires) between connector and amp. The capsule mount and screws don't look genuine like Neumann/Berlin parts to me (this M49 series had an M7, anyway, not a K47). They may be East German/Gefell, or aftermarket.

What did I miss?
Oh, nice, orderly lay-out of components and clean solder work throughout.
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Klaus Heyne
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J.J. Blair

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Re: Which Neumann M49 Version Do I have ?
« Reply #35 on: November 11, 2013, 07:04:04 PM »

5.1 µF output cap? 

Klaus' discussion of original components brought to mind an interesting observation I've made about the difference between the vintage mic market, and something like the vintage guitar market: With guitars, it's very essential to collectors that not only are the potentiometers and tone caps original, the guitar is devalued if the solder joints have been molested!

On the other hand, as long as the capsule is the correct type, the tube is the correct type, and the transformer is original, the sale prices I've noticed for mics on eBay seems to be mostly unaffected by whether or not the resistors and caps have been changed. 

I have a couple theories for these disparities.  The first being that vintage guitars have ceased being used exclusively as tools, and are "valuable things to collect," for some people.  It's not that only somebody needs the sound of a '62 Strat, to make the music they need.  It's that the '62 Strat is something wealthy Japanese businessmen, and lawyers who are guitar hobbyists, etc. have decided that they need.  And in a sense, they have entered the realm shared by antiques, and works of art, where condition and originality affect the value.

The second theory is that there are internet forums full of people who have the idea that these guitar items must be original, and they share the knowledge of what makes them original with each other.  There really only seem to be a small handful of people who know what the original passive components are for these vintage mics, and even fewer who care. 

Fortunately, mics are still tools.  They have gotten expensive enough, with all the people who have entered the recording game.  But unless it's some mint, new in the box example, I'm not noticing any price difference in a M49 with all the resistors and caps changed, and one that is all original.  (That is unless it's been KH'd, which then adds value, it would seem.)  It seems to be accepted that you want to replace ceramic caps, as well as electrolytic caps, etc., but I see Neumann paper and tar output caps routinely replaced with inferior caps, because people think they originals were electrolytic, or they replace the original resistors with metal film resistors, and all the other caps are changed to mylar caps, etc.  Also, guitar components tend not to go bad through non-wear related age, and don't just need replacing.  But looks at how M7 capsules, and certain caps just go bad on their own, with age.
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Jim Williams

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Re: Which Neumann M49 Version Do I have ?
« Reply #36 on: November 12, 2013, 11:29:52 AM »

I'm with Uwe on this one. Look at those parts, I see very high quality Caddock resistors and other fine parts. The 5.1 uf Solen (French) output metalized polyprop cap isn't the best, but might be one of the best that will fit. It is obvious that the owner took great care in selecting the components.

Rather that compare proverbial apples to oranges, I see a lovingly restored/repaired/modified mic that will last for some time, as long as the capsule survives. As long as it is not marketed as an original mic and parts, I see no problems with the owner having access to a fine recording tool, exceptions made for those that worship complete originality over function. Then again, those tend to be 'collectors' that prefer to set this sort of stuff into glass exhibition cases for viewing only. I also believe old guitars should be played, not exhibited.
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J.J. Blair

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Re: Which Neumann M49 Version Do I have ?
« Reply #37 on: November 16, 2013, 01:07:30 AM »

Jim, I'm pretty much on agreement on that. 
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