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[Oldfart]

I know these are not in the same price range, but as anyone here audtioned PCM's OB1 yet?

Oldfart

[Roland Storch]

OTR-jkl wrote on Thu, 02 September 2004 23:15

Roland - I looked at the TB2s and they look very interesting. How do they sound in comparison to others you tried? What do you like/dislike about them?

Comparison were made with ADAM S3A, Hafler TMR8 and JBL LSR32 (with Hafler Transnova 9005 power amp).

I also had the ATC SCM20 and the KS digital ADM2 in my studio, but not side by side to the PMC.

What I like about the PMC.
It is a very open sounding monitor, soundstage is wide and deep (as almost with every 2-way speakers). Voices are clear without coloration. It is easy to hear into a foreign mix and - of course - you also hear very good what you are doing. The bass is deep with good definition but has (surprice) not the pressure of a bigger LSR32. But I could work with it as a fullrange monitor.

What I do not like.
The highs tend to be a little sharp and in the area about 250 Hz there seems to be some kind of resonance - a little.

The negative points are little compared with the less convincing overall performance of the Hafler TMR8. Aaah forgot to mention a comparison with the Genelec 1030. The 1030 has a boomy bass in comparison and I wonder where are the mids at this monitor.

The KS ADM2 and the JBL LSR32 are a step better (they are also bigger) and real full range monitors, but the the PMC still is a littel clearer, more defined overall.

The TB2 I have is the older model and the newer has  soft dome tweeter with a lower  turn over frequency to the mid/bass. Also the transmission line is a little different because they need space for the power amp of the activated TB2. Guess the littel sharpness is gone and maybe with the new turnover frequency the little resonance thing is solved.

For me the passive TB2 is the best monitor I know in that price range of about 1000

[Riccardo]

The TB2/P1500 is a reasonably accurate (for the size) combo but obviously not the only option. I am a fan o PMC speakers but by all means listen to other combinations. I am sure there are quite a few reasonably accurate small speakers ou there that can be used - with care and experience as Brad explained - in a mastering context (ATC Passive 10 come to mind but surely there's more).
regarding amps there's Bryston SST but I believe that's going to be much more expensive than the Hafler.
p.s the ATC website www.atc.gb.net

[ken_m]

I have been looking at some other alternatives.  How about these, probably with a sub.

Dunlavy SM-1
Thiel 1.5 or CS2
PSB Stratus series

These can be found for under $1000 but I've never used them. How about the SLS S8R.  I have read that they have a limited sweet spot because it uses a ribbon tweeter.  Not sure how useful this aspect would be for mastering.

[jfrigo]

ken_m wrote on Sat, 04 September 2004 17:23

I have been looking at some other alternatives.  How about these, probably with a sub.

No problem starting with a high quality small monitor and adding a sub later as budget permits. Better than getting stuck with a crappy larger monitor. It just requires you to realistically take some extra care in the short term. Building a good system in steps is better I think than getting a lot of mediocre stuff that won't grow with you, or might impede your growth. Have a plan and make regular progress toward your goals. Heck, I'm still doing that; I think most of us are still doing that in one form or another. I never want to declare myself "finished". There's always something new to learn or some new gear or technique to try out.

[ken_m]

jfrigo wrote on Sun, 05 September 2004 07:20

I never want to declare myself "finished". There's always something new to learn or some new gear or technique to try out.

Amen!!

Thanks for the advice Jay.

Ken

[TotalSonic]

ken_m wrote on Sun, 05 September 2004 01:23

I have been looking at some other alternatives.  How about these, probably with a sub. Dunlavy SM-1 Thiel 1.5 or CS2 PSB Stratus series These can be found for under $1000 but I've never used them. How about the SLS S8R.  I have read that they have a limited sweet spot because it uses a ribbon tweeter.  Not sure how useful this aspect would be for mastering.

Hey Ken -
If you go for the Thiel's and your room is big enough I'd definitely would go for the 3.5, 3.6 or 2.x because it's bass extension is much better than the 1.x models - i.e. the 3.6 goes down to 29, the 2.4 goes down to 33, whereas the 1.6 only goes down to 48.
I often see great deals for these on http://www.audiogon.com

Best regards,
Steve Berson

[ken_m]

Thanks for the info Steve.  My room is a bit small for the bigger Thiels.  It actually is a bit small for mastering, but I'm determined anyway.  I spend way too much time on audiogon.

BTW Steve, a bit OT, I sent you a message on the SAW Studio forums.  I'm the same dude.  

Ken

[jlarcombe]

Re. the TB2s:

Roland Storch wrote on Fri, 03 September 2004 17:22

What I do not like. The highs tend to be a little sharp and in the area about 250 Hz there seems to be some kind of resonance - a little.

Just for the record, this corresponds precisely with my observations over the year and a half I've been working with them. I've not found the highs to be fatiguing, however; would you agree?

cheers,
James.

[OTR-jkl]

Quote:

Re. the TB2s:

James -
I assume you are using the TB2/P1500 combo for mastering...? How well do they translate? Also, how well can you hear the bottom end? Does the bottom sound real or manufactured (considering the transmission line...)? At about what freq would you consider the TB2s to be "sharp"?....and do you think its due to the monitors or the amp...(I've always felt that the Hafler is just a tad "hard" sounding)...?

[OTR-jkl]

Jay -

Quote:

No problem starting with a high quality small monitor and adding a sub later as budget permits....It just requires you to realistically take some extra care in the short term. Building a good system in steps is better I think than getting a lot of mediocre stuff that won't grow with you, or might impede your growth.

That's my plan. That's why I want to know what you guys consider "crappy" in my price range - although at this point they will have to be desktop or stand-mounted type boxes. As budget permits, I will likely add a sub.

At this point, I need to get something that will give me a clear picture of what's going on - something that I can believe and that will be pretty accurate for most of the spectrum.

FWIW - a friend came over a week ago and we scoped the room. It showed pretty flat for the most part except for a pretty good rolloff starting around 8k. But I wonder if that was due to my (old) monitors as they are (now) clearly pretty dark compared to what they should be. I am using a loaner pair of monitors that are brighter than mine and now I can hear stuff up there that I couldn't hear before.

So, I'm looking for the best possible pair of monitors that are as accurate as I can get and will go down as low as I can get for under the $1k figure...

[Roland Storch]

jlarcombe wrote on Mon, 06 September 2004 09:56

Re. the TB2s: Roland Storch wrote on Fri, 03 September 2004 17:22 What I do not like. The highs tend to be a little sharp and in the area about 250 Hz there seems to be some kind of resonance - a little. Just for the record, this corresponds precisely with my observations over the year and a half I've been working with them. I've not found the highs to be fatiguing, however; would you agree? cheers, James.

I agree.

I will have the latest version with the soft dome tweeter and the modified cross-over this week and tell you about the differencies.

[dcollins]

OTR-jkl wrote on Thu, 02 September 2004 09:12

Please give me some recommendations for a pair of entry level mastering-quality monitors.

Fwiw, I did a ton of mastering with Quested H-108's as the mini system. Without a sub, if you can believe it. Yes, there was a big system to compare to for <60Hz stuff, but they had both a good sound and excellent translation.

DC

[jlarcombe]

OTR-jkl wrote on Mon, 06 September 2004 20:43

I assume you are using the TB2/P1500 combo for mastering...?

Yes, a little, although that's not my primary activity.

Quote:

How well do they translate?

I have found them to translate well, once you've learnt about the slight lower mid 'bump'.

Quote:

Also, how well can you hear the bottom end? Does the bottom sound real or manufactured (considering the transmission line...)?

The bottom end on the TB2 suits me very well: I can hear it clearly, it feels well articulated (in terms of transient response), and doesn't suffer from the 'one note bass' problem of some low-budget ported designs. I know some people dislike the sound of transmission lines but I certainly wouldn't describe the bass on the TB2 as 'manufactured'. Perhaps the transient response is helped by the fact that it's not the longest transmission line in the world (hence less sub-bass), but it seems to be a good trade-off. One thing I like about it is that the bass response feels pretty consistent regardless of monitoring volume - you don't have to crank them up to get it pumping, it's just "there". Because the transmission line vents to the rear, these monitors need a fair bit of space behind them, but I haven't found this to be a problem.

The only shortcoming of the low end in my view is the slight perceived 'bump' in the low-mids, as previously discussed on this thread. But this hasn't stood in the way of critical EQ decisions in that region, and is really fairly benign for monitors at this price.

Quote:

At about what freq would you consider the TB2s to be "sharp"?....and do you think its due to the monitors or the amp...(I've always felt that the Hafler is just a tad "hard" sounding)...?

Hard to say - somewhere above the sibilance region I think, maybe 9K up? Certainly I have no criticism of the main 'vocal range' or upper mids. To be honest I haven't tried my TB2s with any other amps (the Hafler was pretty much the best I could afford at the time) so I couldn't apportion blame between the amp and speakers. I'd love to hear the TB2s with the recommended Bryston amplification, but it comes at a price!

Hope this is helpful. Describing these things is tricky.

James.

[bblackwood]

I have a pair of B&W Nautilus 805's for surrounds, and though I've never listened to them critically as 'mains' they sounds quite good...