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Author Topic: How to Push the 512c without distoring the next stage...  (Read 7267 times)

Topslakr

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How to Push the 512c without distoring the next stage...
« on: October 09, 2012, 09:07:52 PM »



I'm curious. I have no direct experience with API gear but I've read that the API pre-amp really opens up with it's pushed. (For instance: http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/aug07/articles/classictracks_0807.htm) Is that true? Do others have experience that would agree or disagree?

Assuming that is true, does that apply to the 512c in a 500 Rack?

If it does, how does one then manage the resulting quite hot level coming out of the Pre-amp? In the linked story, they just pulled back the output fader to reduce the level before hitting tape. I am developing a studio around an older inline console (Don't laugh.. it's a Tascam M3700). Is the level going to be too hot for me to use the line in on the console and then use the output fader before hitting tape/DAW? Some distortion or harmonics from the API gear may sound pleasing but I'd prefer not to then also overdrive the console.

How do others manage this? Is it a simple case of then hitting a compressor to reduce the level back to something more in line with your recording medium? Is the resulting level from a pushed 512c not hot enough to be an issue? In a lot of situations I want to do something to the signal that will screw up the gain staging further down the line, what tricks are being used to mange that?

Thanks for any input!

My background: Weekend warrior, though I did attend school for recording a few years back. I ran a small recording studio a but having moved and bought a house, I'm back into the planning stages for a similar small recording studio. Beyond my day job, I am a paid sound person at my local church.


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Jim Williams

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Re: How to Push the 512c without distoring the next stage...
« Reply #1 on: October 10, 2012, 11:33:31 AM »

Just hang a Switchcraft 10 db pad on the output. Then you can get 10 db more THD out of the preamp. With the 20 db pad you can saturate and fully clip the API so it sounds like a fuzz tone, the sound of "today".

FWIW, we never did that 30 years ago. We fought THD back then. Now it is embraced.
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Fletcher

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Re: How to Push the 512c without distoring the next stage...
« Reply #2 on: October 10, 2012, 07:14:49 PM »

Well... finding a signal path that avoids the 3700 will put you on the bonus plan.  If you don't need to combine signals, and can avoid the desk for but mixing, you're already a step ahead.  Jim recommended a pad - so I will too... the Shure a15as variable pad is about as sonically transparent as I've found in the "off the shelf" variety pads and it will work like a charm if you want to push the 512c.

I would also put a piece of tape over the meter on the 512c module [black - thick!!] as that meter is entirely useless... and in some cases gets you to back off before you get "the sound" you're hoping to achieve.

Jim's comments on THD are pretty much spot on... but this is a new world with new paradigms so follow your gut and suiting your personal sense of aesthetic is highly recommended.  Remember - its not too difficult to add distortion, but its impossible to remove it once its there.

Peace
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CN Fletcher

mwagener wrote on Sat, 11 September 2004 14:33
We are selling emotions, there are no emotions in a grid


"Recording engineers are an arrogant bunch
If you've spent most of your life with a few thousand dollars worth of musicians in the studio, making a decision every second and a half... and you and  they are going to have to live with it for the rest of your lives, you'll get pretty arrogant too.  It takes a certain amount of balls to do that... something around three"
Malcolm Chisholm

Topslakr

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Re: How to Push the 512c without distoring the next stage...
« Reply #3 on: October 11, 2012, 12:28:31 PM »

Excellent. Thank you gentlemen!

Investing in a few inline pads seems like the best choice and I'm sure I'll find some other uses for them as well.
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mbrebes

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Re: How to Push the 512c without distoring the next stage...
« Reply #4 on: October 11, 2012, 03:52:01 PM »

I am not familiar with the API 512c, but if it is like the earlier mic preamps doesn't it have an output transformer.  If so, then part of the "too hot" issue could be that the output transformer is not terminated which would make it quite a bit louder.  Verify that it is terminated properly.
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craigmorris74

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Re: How to Push the 512c without distoring the next stage...
« Reply #5 on: October 12, 2012, 10:11:25 PM »

There is an old article that exist in .pdf format on the web with the guys who worked on Fleetwood Mac Rumors.  They described having trouble getting a good sound out of the API desk until they pushed the preamps.  Not what type of API pre, though.

I guess they didn't mind the THD.

Craig
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Topslakr

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Re: How to Push the 512c without distoring the next stage...
« Reply #6 on: October 13, 2012, 08:45:29 AM »

I think you'll find the link I posted above is that very article.  ;D
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Fletcher

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Re: How to Push the 512c without distoring the next stage...
« Reply #7 on: October 14, 2012, 10:34:28 PM »

When Rumors was made [mid-late 70's] the basic pre-amp design was the "312" card which isn't a whole hell of a lot different than the current 512c ad 212... the main difference being that it was a board that was inside the desk rather than an outboard module that could fit in a frame.

Peace
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CN Fletcher

mwagener wrote on Sat, 11 September 2004 14:33
We are selling emotions, there are no emotions in a grid


"Recording engineers are an arrogant bunch
If you've spent most of your life with a few thousand dollars worth of musicians in the studio, making a decision every second and a half... and you and  they are going to have to live with it for the rest of your lives, you'll get pretty arrogant too.  It takes a certain amount of balls to do that... something around three"
Malcolm Chisholm

Jim Williams

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Re: How to Push the 512c without distoring the next stage...
« Reply #8 on: October 15, 2012, 12:25:19 PM »

That Mac record is an example of how rock star excess can be damaging to your recordings.

When you listen to that very soft sounding pop album you are listening to the safety 24 track "copy" of the original tapes. That's because too much time/ego/drugs lead those artists to believe they could overdub that tape forever. Well, you can't.

They wore it out and the safety is the release.
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Topslakr

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Re: How to Push the 512c without distoring the next stage...
« Reply #9 on: October 15, 2012, 09:31:51 PM »

Interesting about the 312 Module. It seems API has kept even that alive. You can buy a rack of 512c modules or 212 modules and some of their other rack gear has the 312 circuit. Their 'A2D' 1U pre-amp and A/D converted says it has 'a pair of signature 312' mic pres.

Considering they are all built around the 2520 chip, the differences seem to be in the package it's built in as well as the pre's feature set. The 212L has no DI, for instance, where as the 512c does.

On paper at least, it looks like 6 of one, half dozen of another. Different form factor and features added or deleted but generally the same circuit once you get to the gain...
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Fletcher

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Re: How to Push the 512c without distoring the next stage...
« Reply #10 on: October 17, 2012, 09:02:41 AM »

For the most part they are pretty much interchangeable units -- different form factors.  One bit of semantics... the 2520 is an "op-amp module"... a "chip" suggests that the 2520 is a silicon "IC" [integrated circuit] "chip" while the 2520 is built from discrete components [all are "op-amps", but not all "op-amps" are chips].

No disrespect intended... only trying to keep the "geek speak" consistent.

Peace
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CN Fletcher

mwagener wrote on Sat, 11 September 2004 14:33
We are selling emotions, there are no emotions in a grid


"Recording engineers are an arrogant bunch
If you've spent most of your life with a few thousand dollars worth of musicians in the studio, making a decision every second and a half... and you and  they are going to have to live with it for the rest of your lives, you'll get pretty arrogant too.  It takes a certain amount of balls to do that... something around three"
Malcolm Chisholm

Topslakr

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Re: How to Push the 512c without distoring the next stage...
« Reply #11 on: October 19, 2012, 03:26:45 PM »

I knew 'chip' was the wrong word but the right one wouldn't come to me... Thanks!
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Fletcher

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Re: How to Push the 512c without distoring the next stage...
« Reply #12 on: October 19, 2012, 10:24:57 PM »

I knew 'chip' was the wrong word but the right one wouldn't come to me... Thanks!

All good... glad you now have the correct word.

Peace
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CN Fletcher

mwagener wrote on Sat, 11 September 2004 14:33
We are selling emotions, there are no emotions in a grid


"Recording engineers are an arrogant bunch
If you've spent most of your life with a few thousand dollars worth of musicians in the studio, making a decision every second and a half... and you and  they are going to have to live with it for the rest of your lives, you'll get pretty arrogant too.  It takes a certain amount of balls to do that... something around three"
Malcolm Chisholm
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