Topic: Huge guitars? (Read 4442 times)

CarterMnyc · « **on:** August 30, 2004, 12:26:39 PM »

Hey all. I'm about to start working on a project with an alt rock band that has its roots in the new trend of epic british rock music (think Muse, Radiohead, The Cooper Temple Clause). My question is. How do you get those huge sounding crunch guitars without that extra layer of noise that makes it sound distant and thin. I listen to Muse's absolution (engineered by Rich Costey) and i'm just in AWE of the guitar sounds. How do they get them so heavy, yet so articulate. Any idea guys?

If you dont know of any of the bands i mentioned i can post an mp3 on my site. Let me know.

CHEERS!
Carter

JPRisus · « **Reply #1 on:** August 30, 2004, 03:16:59 PM »

not too much amp gain or you'll regret it... find the focus of energy in the guitar Hz and get everything else out of it's way. of course the Hz will depend on many things. can't go wrong with a 57, and if that's not cuttin it, the mic certainly isn't the problem. Guitar, amp, and guitarist are biggest factors... if they're not playing *big*, not much we can ever do except polish crap. and the relationship between guitar, bass, and drums is KEY.

again, amplifier gain is the wrong way to go for *big*, and it's the biggest mistake in the book.

Tomas Danko · « **Reply #2 on:** August 30, 2004, 03:49:20 PM »

JPRisus wrote on Mon, 30 August 2004 20:16

not too much amp gain or you'll regret it... find the focus of energy in the guitar Hz and get everything else out of it's way. of course the Hz will depend on many things. can't go wrong with a 57, and if that's not cuttin it, the mic certainly isn't the problem. Guitar, amp, and guitarist are biggest factors... if they're not playing *big*, not much we can ever do except polish crap. and the relationship between guitar, bass, and drums is KEY.

again, amplifier gain is the wrong way to go for *big*, and it's the biggest mistake in the book.

I've sometimes forced (well, using reverse psychology or whatever had him feel it was his idea?) the guitarist to get a set of strings with higher gauge and a thicker pick. They usually go mental over the improved tone. Attack is everything, very often.

I recall Guitar Player many years ago having done a series of articles about the hunt for the killer tone. In the end, after having waded through all the usual tricks and then some, they concluded that higher gauge requires harder attack results in killer tone, and that this one tip ran over all the others throughout the articles...

/Danko

j.hall · « **Reply #3 on:** August 30, 2004, 03:51:14 PM »

i've often said, "i'll gladly polish turds, but with all that polishing, it will just end up smaller and it will still be brown."

i'm with JP.....watch the gain at the amp.

57 are crap IMO, a 57 just wants to be a byer M-88 so bad it's silly.

place mic on axis pointed right at the center of the speaker cone.

again, player, what they are playing, guitar, amp.....then you get to do something.

compression plays into some of those tones too

rich costey is not exactly foreign to compression.......

Fibes · « **Reply #4 on:** August 30, 2004, 03:55:05 PM »

I'll third the guage and gain ideas and raise you one height...

String height can either help or hurt tone as well. Too close to the pickups/fretboards yields magnetic interference and buzz but be careful, too far gets you pitch problems.

The right hand is the first place to look for tone, everything else downstrem is moderately insignificant if we assume decent quality...

JPRisus · « **Reply #5 on:** August 30, 2004, 04:30:02 PM »

strings are critical.. i keep 11's on hand, and will often insist on a guitarist using them.

i'll throw another factor into the equation... pickup height. world of difference. getting it 'right' has proven critical to me lately.

as for 57s, i can't stand 'em dead-on-axis. always regret it in the mix. something about them 35-45 degrees to either side of center and about an inch back works fine for me. Distressor Dist 3 and sometimes a little 3:1 or 4:1 is nice. urei 546 for 'trimming the fat' is key IMHO.

CarterMnyc · « **Reply #6 on:** August 30, 2004, 06:03:54 PM »

These tips are fantastic. The group I'm working with has little resources so we're stuck to their home studio which is a pretty nice DP4 rig. As far as mic choices, I'm bringing some of my own. Is there any sense in using a condenser for the amp? Like a 414? I don't think i can personally afford a beyer at this moment. Any suggestions for budget minded producers looking for great guitar mics?

JPRisus · « **Reply #7 on:** August 30, 2004, 07:12:06 PM »

CarterMnyc wrote on Mon, 30 August 2004 18:03

These tips are fantastic. The group I'm working with has little resources so we're stuck to their home studio which is a pretty nice DP4 rig. As far as mic choices, I'm bringing some of my own. Is there any sense in using a condenser for the amp? Like a 414? I don't think i can personally afford a beyer at this moment. Any suggestions for budget minded producers looking for great guitar mics?

Sure there are lotsa mics used on guitars every day, including the M88, 414, m160, 121, etc., but honestly, if you can't make it happen with a 57, it isn't there to begin with IMHO. I think it helps psychologically too, by ruling the mic out of the equation, it forces you to look at the source for problems, which is where they usually lie. Limitations can often be positive.

j.hall · « **Reply #8 on:** August 31, 2004, 10:12:11 AM »

i avoid condenser mics on loud distorted guitar rigs. often times you get a crackling type sound off the cap and it just ruins the tone.

i'll use my earthworks 10 feet off an amp for some big room type sounds....but that is a rare application

JP, i think you are wrong about the 57, you are really used to what that mic does for guitars, and how it interacts with a speaker......you are assuming that other people have that working knowledge of that particular mic. i'd rather use a 57 as a door stop then put it on any instrument in the entire recording.

i think the key is to find a mic that works for you, and use it many times for guitars.....learn the mic and how it interacts with speakers, gain.....all that.

JP brought up something that should not be overlooked

you have to make sure your guitar tone will work well with te drums and bass you've cut.

what i often do is get my drum sounds going. i even set up the monitor path.....

i.e. whatever is being sent to tape is right....then i'll start patching some compression, gates if needed, EQ, verb on the tape out, console in side of things

i'll take notes, decide if i should print what is happening in the monitor path or not.....i have the drummer approve the sounds

then i move on to the bass player....i do the same exact thing. mic the amp, run a DI....

then those two go in a play together, i make some changes to get the tones working well

mainly i'm listening for the bottom of the kick to work with the bottom of the bass, and the attack of the bass to work with the snare drum

then we do guitars and it starts all over

but instead of tweaking bass and drums, i will start tweaking guitar tones to match what i've already got going on.

if the tone is awful, i'll change the drums and bass.

getting a good full raw tone is important, but having it work well with the other tracks.....that is crucial.

JPRisus · « **Reply #9 on:** August 31, 2004, 02:52:58 PM »

j.hall wrote on Tue, 31 August 2004 10:12

JP, i think you are wrong about the 57, you are really used to what that mic does for guitars, and how it interacts with a speaker......you are assuming that other people have that working knowledge of that particular mic. i'd rather use a 57 as a door stop then put it on any instrument in the entire recording.

i think the key is to find a mic that works for you, and use it many times for guitars.....learn the mic and how it interacts with speakers, gain.....all that.

You nailed it, i was more or less assuming that everyone has heard and knows what to expect from a 57 on guitars.

ditto what you said about condensers though, i worked with a couple of dude who swore by 414s and U87s up on the grill and it always sounded so fake to me... no balls! lots of detail though... it's a tradeoff i guess.

Fibes · « **Reply #10 on:** August 31, 2004, 04:00:48 PM »

I never use LDs alone but they play nice with ribbons. My fave LD is an M269c on guitars. It's very smooth up top.

craig boychuk · « **Reply #11 on:** August 31, 2004, 10:50:27 PM »

If you change the guage of the strings, you will also affect the action and the intonation of the guitar. Be prepared to also adjust these things if you change guages. A big change in string guage can potentially make the player uncomfortable, or unable to play certain parts...if there's lots of string bends in the music and you slap on real heavy strings, it's probably gonna make things more difficult for the player.

Also -

Telling musicians to change their rig can also be a very touchy subject. Personally, I know what I like, and know what sounds best on my instruments, and I'll be damned if anyone is going to tell me otherwise. To just walk in and start changing someone's instrument can be a serious insult, and can make the musician unsure of their playing / gear / abilities / whatever.

All this being said, I play 13s on my electric, and use 5 string sets without the high string on my 4 string bass which is like 135 on the bottom string, so I totally agree that heavy guages usually sound best.

It's all about knowing how to tactfully suggest changes, and being prepared to adjust the instrument to compensate for them.

JPRisus · « **Reply #12 on:** August 31, 2004, 11:03:02 PM »

Good point mid-fi... a good guitar tech on speed-dial is nice to have! saved my ass a bunch of times.

regarding musicians and their gear, i'll always listen to what the player walks in with first, and if it sucks, i'll set them up with what I think might be right and let them hear the difference. End up using my rigs 90% of the time without any problems to date. If someone is so hell-bent on using their POS when better or more appropriate gear is handy, we'll have a little talk about how ego has never helped a CD to sound any better. Like i said, an A/B comparison usually ends any skepticism. Then again, most of the guys I work with have little studio experience and don't really know what an appropriate tone is... i'm sure this is different in other circles.

Fibes · « **Reply #13 on:** September 01, 2004, 05:05:44 PM »

Yeah Mid-Fi--- One thing to keep in mind is if it ain't broke don't fix it. Sometimes guitarists need to swap to heavier guage stuff for rhythm because they constantly pull things out using light strings. Lead is a different game altogether.

Curve Dominant · « **Reply #14 on:** September 02, 2004, 12:55:03 AM »

Quote:

a good guitar tech on speed-dial is nice to have! saved my ass a bunch of times.

Right on.

I would add: not just nice to have, but essential, if you want a killer guitar sound, ready at all times.

A good guitar tech can change/adjust a guitarist's beloved rig in a way that is still comfortable for the guitarist.

Not to mention the fact they are armed with strobe tuners, cable testers, soldering stations (for making custom cables and connectors on the fly, modding amps and guitars, etc.), and the comprehensive knowledge of axes and amps and their intracacies that comes in handy on a session.

The REALLY good guitar techs also have arsenals of guitars, amps and FX pedals at their disposal for the band's guitarist to go nuts experimenting with.

My latest production was ALL guitars, NO synthes or sample loops involved, and having a guitar tech on the gig was a life saver. I would almost go so far as to say that I couldn't have pulled it off without him. It definitely made a huge difference in the outcome (and the speed of the outcome).

I know several excellent guitar techs, so don't hesitate to contact me through my website if anyone needs one.

JPRisus · « **Reply #15 on:** September 02, 2004, 02:03:42 AM »

Eric Vincent wrote on Thu, 02 September 2004 00:55

I know several excellent guitar techs, so don't hesitate to contact me through my website if anyone needs one.

Eric, hit me up with anyone you know in the northern NJ area... always looking for more options.

Thanks in advance!

j.hall · « **Reply #16 on:** September 02, 2004, 09:59:14 AM »

my best friend often assists me in the studio.....the best part of this is he knows how to assist.

a side bonus to this is. when he is done helping me with initial set up of the drum kit and i'm dialing in sounds (after mics are moved and i'm simply switching pre's, comps....that stuff) he can't stand to sit around.

he gathers up all the guitars, sets up a little work area and start intonating/setting up guitars and basses. (he's good at it)

when we get to guitars and overdubs.....i'm loving him.....everything is in tune, the players are happy cause their guitars are playing the way they want. it's awesome.

takeout · « **Reply #17 on:** September 02, 2004, 10:17:33 AM »

Little amps.

Curve Dominant · « **Reply #18 on:** September 02, 2004, 01:44:19 PM »

Quote:

Little amps.

YES!

It seems counterintuitive to a lot of folks: "How does a little amp get a huge sound??"

Ya gotta try this tho, get a tiny tube amp and crank the SH&T out of it. Then when you mix it, PRETEND it was a huge amp.

JPRisus · « **Reply #19 on:** September 02, 2004, 02:56:31 PM »

Just picked up a Peavey Classic 20 for that exact reason. I'd rather crank a little amp for certain sounds than attempt it on a 100w head.

JPRisus · « **Reply #20 on:** September 02, 2004, 02:58:36 PM »

i need a best friend like J. has

maybe having a kid will pay off in 20 years... after all, i help my old man with tons of shit. and i don't give him THAT much grief...

j.hall · « **Reply #21 on:** September 02, 2004, 04:20:11 PM »

yeah.....hahahaha

we're talking about the same guy that just posted "small amps"

which is the same guy that's getting ready to start building his own electric guitars.....and after i worked on his CAD files for him....i can't wait to play one.....

dude's got skillzzzzzzzzzzzz.

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Author Topic: Huge guitars? (Read 4442 times)