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Author Topic: Effects Of The Sony C37 Grill (and Grills In General)  (Read 4568 times)

Piedpiper

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Effects Of The Sony C37 Grill (and Grills In General)
« on: March 03, 2012, 04:19:43 pm »

In comparing my Sony C37P to other LDCs I've notice a slightly closed in opaque quality to the midrange. Any thoughts or experience with how the grill, perforated sheet metal with fine screen underneath, effects the openness of the mids, or any other effects?
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klaus

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Re: effects of the Sony C37 grill
« Reply #1 on: March 05, 2012, 02:02:27 am »

I am in the middle of sifting through several hundred posts on car forums trying to learn about the efficacy of chipping my car. (The ECU of some cars can be 'chipped' (re-programmed) by external re-flash to alter an engine's performance parameters, resulting in claims of torque and horsepower improvements.

When reporting about the results of some of these re-programming efforts (offered as a produc/service, most are quite pricey) posters often use flowery language or technical jargon to express their subjective sense of an improvement ("butt dyno") that otherwise eludes objective, scientific confirmation on an actual dynamometer run.

Microphone head basket posts remind me of that: subjective impressions of improved transparency that are hard to impossible to measure. My "butt dyno" which has become quite sensitive after more than a couple of decades of experiments tells me: rarely will a triple of double layer of mesh on a head basket alter the frequency balance in a substantial, character changing way.

In you C37 case it would require that you make measurements with a sweep analyzer and recorded music before and after removal of one layer of mesh from the SAME microphone under the same measurement conditions to show changes appreciable enough to justify a permanent alteration of the head basket.

What complicates this issue is the fact that diffraction and reflection of sound from a microphone head basket is a complex affair, where sometimes mesh layer removal is not always the better choice:
I remember removing once the innermost mesh on an ELA M 251 thinking, if the mic already sounds THAT good with the inner mesh, how much better will it sound with that mesh removed! I was wrong. The mic's overall timbre became too glassy, sterile, and emotionally uninviting. (Whereas the SAME head basket design (though on a basket a bit smaller in diameter) in a mic with almost the same capsule and circuit- the C!2 - sounds very much the best with just one mesh layer. 

Just goes to show you: The tiniest difference between two mics (tube biasing method, in this case) can be enough to nix a seemingly straight-forward approach to using the same head basket design. Likewise, the tiniest alteration of head basket design can throw off a mic's balance and personality.
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Klaus Heyne
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Piedpiper

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Re: Effects Of The Sony C37 Grill (and Grills In General)
« Reply #2 on: March 05, 2012, 11:30:21 am »

Thanks for your thoughtful reply. In the case of the C37, the head basket seems like it might be a worst case scenario for creating standing waves, distorting transients, etc., much more so than the typical large wire mesh type.
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Dominick Costanzo

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Re: Effects Of The Sony C37 Grill (and Grills In General)
« Reply #3 on: March 06, 2012, 07:19:35 pm »

I have 2 Sony C37A microphones.
#2604 has a 2 layer head basket. Outer shell w/ 1 mm round perforations and an inner screen of approximately 0.6 mm pitch.
#4473 adds an additional inner fabric layer.
I've swapped head baskets between the mics.
The head basket with the additional layer significantly attenuates upper mid frequencies compared to the other one.
Rather than tear the 3rd layer out of #4473 I decided to keep is as it is and use the mic that works for the source.
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J.J. Blair

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Re: Effects Of The Sony C37 Grill (and Grills In General)
« Reply #4 on: March 09, 2012, 12:34:16 am »

I think as important as the filtration, are the reflections inside the basket. 
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Piedpiper

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Re: Effects Of The Sony C37 Grill (and Grills In General)
« Reply #5 on: March 09, 2012, 01:29:02 am »

and both would seem to be significant with this design.
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klaus

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Re: Effects Of The Sony C37 Grill (and Grills In General)
« Reply #6 on: March 09, 2012, 01:54:17 pm »

Rather than speculating any further on whether the extra layer of screen affects the sound of you mic negatively, why not just find out by removing it, and report back?
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Klaus Heyne
German Masterworks®
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didier.brest

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Re: Effects Of The Sony C37 Grill (and Grills In General)
« Reply #7 on: March 10, 2012, 02:05:00 pm »

The two_layer grill of a M149 makes the capsule much more visible than in a M 49. The AEA R88  grill would be also more transparent than the one of its mono version the AEA R84, according to AEA. The grill of a Manley Gold Reference has only one layer. Is it just marketing ? 
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Didier Brest

klaus

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Re: Effects Of The Sony C37 Grill (and Grills In General)
« Reply #8 on: March 10, 2012, 02:51:19 pm »

Please read the last two paragraphs of my very long post.

Maybe the post WAS too long for anyone to actually read it. I know, time is ....hmmm....money??? Gotta be reading....hmmm.... so many other posts in so many other forums? Post was.... er... rambling and not so interesting?
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Klaus Heyne
German Masterworks®
www.GermanMasterworks.com

didier.brest

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Re: Effects Of The Sony C37 Grill (and Grills In General)
« Reply #9 on: March 10, 2012, 03:28:02 pm »

Klaus, I apologize! Indeed I did not read your post entirely while I thought that I did...  ???
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Didier Brest

Piedpiper

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Re: Effects Of The Sony C37 Grill (and Grills In General)
« Reply #10 on: March 10, 2012, 08:16:24 pm »

Rather than speculating any further on whether the extra layer of screen affects the sound of you mic negatively, why not just find out by removing it, and report back?

I'll likely replace the entire grill rather than mess up the stock one. The outer perforated sheet metal grill actually concerns me more than the inner fine mesh. could be a while till I get to it...
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Kai

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Re: Effects Of The Sony C37 Grill (and Grills In General)
« Reply #11 on: March 11, 2012, 11:30:03 am »

I'll likely replace the entire grill rather than mess up the stock one.
Assumed that it's easily possible to remove the original without destroying it I would, before digging too deep, use an experimental, improvised grill, made from any kind of cheap wire mesh, e.g. from the garden, fixed with tape.
It only needs to shield the hum.
Then you can hear what the capsule sounds like without a dense grill and hear whether the whole thing is worth the effort.

The grills serve several porposes and are, on high class mics, usually optimized by the developer for these:

- Hum rejection, screening- a more or less easy task.
- Mechanical protection- you need a strong wire for that.
- Wind and vocal 'plosives reduction- best done with several layers of different mesh.
- Dirt and spray protection- best with a fine mesh.
- All this without compromising the sound too much.

If you have different needs than the mic was made for, alteration can make sense; it's a bit like developing a mic.
A simple change, e.g., is the use of a foam windscreen or a zeppelin if one needs to use the mic outside.
But, if you have a classic, every permanent change for better or worse, will destroy its value.

Couldn't the C37 be considered to be one?

Regards
Kai
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Piedpiper

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Re: Effects Of The Sony C37 Grill (and Grills In General)
« Reply #12 on: March 12, 2012, 03:31:02 pm »

That's exactly what I was planning on doing, and why... It's not too hard to remove the stock one and replace it with something temporary...
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