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Author Topic: School me on the latest-greatest plugins...  (Read 34024 times)

Jerry Tubb

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Re: School me on the latest-greatest plugins...
« Reply #60 on: February 15, 2011, 12:52:16 AM »

Geoff Emerick de Fake wrote on Mon, 14 February 2011 16:23

Once again, you're throwing the proverbial baby.


Hahaha, no, just blanket comments implying that tape noise is a bad thing.

Sonic NoNoise can be very effective when used properly.

Often it's still a toss up whether to use NR, or keep all the ambience & live with a little natural tape noise.

Cheers, JT
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Geoff Emerick de Fake

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Re: School me on the latest-greatest plugins...
« Reply #61 on: February 15, 2011, 03:01:16 AM »

Jerry Tubb wrote on Mon, 14 February 2011 23:52

 Often it's still a toss up whether to use NR, or keep all the ambience & live with a little natural tape noise.

Cheers, JT
I use Samplitude's DeNoiser; like NoNoise, it works by sampling a portion of what you want to get rid of, but it offers much more possibilities of tuning. I use it to remove hiss and/or hum. I never loose the ambience; on the contrary, removing noise makes background information more defined. NoNoise is in some ways a thing of the past, they haven't caught up with new developments. Still ok for standard restoration.
Regards,
Geoff
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Table Of Tone

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Re: School me on the latest-greatest plugins...
« Reply #62 on: February 15, 2011, 08:18:03 AM »

The problem is that younger clients are just not used to hearing tape hiss so they instantly see it as a negative thing!

The best thing I've found for tackling hiss is the SpectralDeHiss Expert VPI.
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Dave Davis

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Re: School me on the latest-greatest plugins...
« Reply #63 on: February 15, 2011, 08:29:43 AM »

Andrew Hamilton wrote on Mon, 14 February 2011 17:42

But no one wanted a computer until they were invented, though many historically and economically significant masters were cut without a hitch - all analog.



Whuuuuu?  You're not serious, here right? If so, speak for yourself. I absolutely, positively wanted a computer before I'd ever seen a small, personal one and I definitely wasn't alone. Most engineers in the late 70s were aware of digital audio and it's potential benefits for recording. Most of those folks realized a computer, whether or not disguised as an appliance, was the way to get there.  Obviously virtually every classic cut prior to 1980 was unhindered by a lack of DSP, so no argument there. But even there I've heard many reissues that benefitted from specific DSP to address certain issues better or more transparently than the analog processes available at the time of creation. In short, DSP can make some older recordings more pleasant to listen to, even if they were successful initially. Fans can pick often their poison, choosing the new or old versions.

My "pro" audio experiences began in 1978, when I worked for a fairly well-off band doing live sound and a little recording with the gear of my choice. By the time I entered the industry, "computers" were already in wide use as automation controllers, often hidden as dedicated DSP in analog-looking boxes. Crappy digital delay lines were all the rage when they appeared a few years later.  While I was always impatient and disappointed by the early digital devices, like many I went gaga over the first Synclavier I saw in the mid 80s. Throughout this era the dream of using DSP for eq, compression and limiting was thriving. It wasn't only the prophets who desired computer-based control for this all-digital processor (we sort of had it with midi, eh?). After a couple months using ADATs, most people pined for computers to eliminate the unreliable transports and visualize the tracks. The concept of "clothesline" gain control existed before the capability to do it, thanks to early computer midi sequencers. But alas, the drives were too small, RAM too pricey. Still my first DAW, PT1/Deck, pushed the envelope and made me dream of still more things I wanted that had not yet been invented.

When I started mastering professionally in the mid 90s, again I was pretty impatient with the pace of progress... There were plugs I liked back then, but they took tons of DSP the computers lacked. But by this point there were unique digital processes emerging already, especially in the area of limiters, able to do things analog couldn't (full-fidelity look-ahead). Multi-band compression is a process introduced tangentially in the analog era, that flowered and matured in DSP (to be re-introduced to analog in the 21st century). Many engineers I knew could imagine, describe and pine for tools like ReNOVAtor which hadn't been invented yet. Again, the need preceded the tools.

Many engineers clearly imagined and anticipated general purpose computing appliances able to handle audio. Don't take my word for it, talk to Glenn Meadows (calling Glenn! Come in, Glenn!!) or ask Jay Petach. There were few anti-digital luddites in the pre-PC era damning computers but plenty of vision and excitement in anticipation. In fact I think you have in backwards: MOST engineers desired something a lot like a modern DAW, in an admittedly sci-fi/HAL kind of way (we grew up with Captain Kirk and Spock on TV). When I was in elementary school, my friends and I played a "space game" where an etchasketch was something essentially like an iPad - a general purpose computer to talk to our "ship", conjure images and sounds, etc... so in the mid 60s even CHILDREN imagined computers doing all kinds of tasks (many since realized)!

Mastering engineers in particular dreamed of devices like modern digital limiters, surgical EQs, and variable band-pass options. No one pined for noise in that era, as some kind of desireable benefit; it was viewed as a necessary evil to be minimized and avoided at all costs, not vaunted (we never dreamed we'd be injecting it intentionally as "dither"). Lathes were among the first audio devices to benefit from computerization, and once CDs became common, that trend accelerated to the point where we got the first DAWs. As a profession we're at the leading edge of the shift, with few foot draggers.

I'm glad our profession's been slow to ditch great sounding analog, and that we embrace whatever works. We're lucky because most mastering gear is well-built and designed, so it never didn't sound good. We get it! But most idea taken to extremes get worse. We've all seen some sketchy practices, executed with janky old gear, being sold as some sort of "classic" fashion plate. Likewise many modern plugs fit that notion even better than worn out DBX 163s - a retro gui, atop some ugly algos with lots of injected noise isn't charming or classic, just noisy and ugly (T-RACKS!).

I'm not saying plugs are better or analog is worse. Actually both are pretty great these days in mastering. I'm saying that many engineers anticipated and dreamed of DAWs long before personal computing was a reality. In fact, thanks to positive experiences with console automation, cutting computers, and digitally-controlled analog stages in the 70s, most engineers had been exposed to the benefits. Since audio was becoming more modular in the pre-PC era (breaking "out of the box" of giant holistic consoles to specialized outboard processors), we were jonesing for computers and DAWs at work before accountants ever heard of Visicalc.

"No one wanted a computer until they were invented" is bunk, at least in audio. Even out here in the Ohio Valley hills many engineers wanted computers.
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masterhse

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Re: School me on the latest-greatest plugins...
« Reply #64 on: February 15, 2011, 11:03:00 AM »

Table Of Tone wrote on Tue, 15 February 2011 08:18

The problem is that younger clients are just not used to hearing tape hiss so they instantly see it as a negative thing!



Is there a plug-in to give uncompressed audio the sound of mp3s at different bit rates?
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Andrew Hamilton

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Re: School me on the latest-greatest plugins...
« Reply #65 on: February 15, 2011, 12:10:44 PM »

Dave Davis wrote on Tue, 15 February 2011 08:29

Andrew Hamilton wrote on Mon, 14 February 2011 17:42

But no one wanted a computer until they were invented, though many historically and economically significant masters were cut without a hitch - all analog.



Whuuuuu?  You're not serious, here right? If so, speak for yourself.  I absolutely, positively wanted a computer before I'd ever seen a small, personal one and I definitely wasn't alone.


I'll try to limit my comments to my own conjecture, rather than speaking on behalf of the list, or other premastering studios:

You may have wished for a computer, Mr. Davis, but I still maintain that you never actually _wanted_ one in order to sound so good.  Smile  

The only-analog work of our betters (from Rudy to Tubby) speaks for itself, and had one never got around to marrying the video game to the 24-track, although we'd be way more busy tweakin', I wonder if our work hasn't suffered for all the d'illusions of conveniences, portability, and the cut, copy, paste, at the click of a mouse, world...  


Most of what is great about music recording technology and history did not "want" (absolutely require; need; have a lack of...) digital fixing to be stunning and worth buying.   You could live, record, ... and even have fun, without personal processing of the computer type.  

It's also worth considering again how the vague performance of the analog disk copies in the field was an automagic copy-protection device.  (;

Dave Davis wrote on Tue, 15 February 2011 08:29

Most engineers in the late 70s were aware of digital audio and its potential benefits for recording. Most of those folks realized a computer, whether or not disguised as an appliance, was the way to get there.  Obviously virtually every classic cut prior to 1980 was unhindered by a lack of DSP, so no argument there.



Thank you.   They were able to release some records which still get airplay, today, without having invoked a plugin or object editor.   No offense to dsp.  Just saying.   Engineers want conveniences, but they also want results.  If you like the way your plugins sound compared to your Sontec, I encourage you not to jack the signal just out of habit.  

But if you are mastering an lp from tape, and you have the choice of going preview head to Compudisk, or program head (only) to A/D converter (on your way to Compudisk), you'd know that more processing is going on than absolutely has to, were you to go with the digital delay.  

Dave Davis wrote on Tue, 15 February 2011 08:29

 But even there I've heard many reissues that benefitted from specific DSP to address certain issues better or more transparently than the analog processes available at the time of creation.


I love a good restoration.  
 
If the job is a contemporary release, however, there are plenty of good ways to avoid objectionable amounts of hiss in the analog domain.  Faster, wider, and Dolby are three possibilities.


Dave Davis wrote on Tue, 15 February 2011 08:29

In short, DSP can make some older recordings more pleasant to listen to, even if they were successful initially. Fans can pick often their poison, choosing the new or old versions.


But, if it ain't broken, don't remaster it.  };

Dave Davis wrote on Tue, 15 February 2011 08:29


My "pro" audio experiences began in 1978, when I worked for a fairly well-off band doing live sound and a little recording with the gear of my choice. By the time I entered the industry, "computers" were already in wide use as automation controllers, often hidden as dedicated DSP in analog-looking boxes. Crappy digital delay lines were all the rage when they appeared a few years later.  While I was always impatient and disappointed by the early digital devices, like many I went gaga over the first Synclavier I saw in the mid 80s. Throughout this era the dream of using DSP for eq, compression and limiting was thriving. It wasn't only the prophets who desired computer-based control for this all-digital processor (we sort of had it with midi, eh?). After a couple months using ADATs, most people pined for computers to eliminate the unreliable transports and visualize the tracks. The concept of "clothesline" gain control existed before the capability to do it, thanks to early computer midi sequencers. But alas, the drives were too small, RAM too pricey. Still my first DAW, PT1/Deck, pushed the envelope and made me dream of still more things I wanted that had not yet been invented.


I'm certainly not against computer control of a lathe.

I like releases that are only available on digital audio, but I wonder sometimes how they'd have sounded (only) analog.  

Dave Davis wrote on Tue, 15 February 2011 08:29

...
When I started mastering professionally in the mid 90s, again I was pretty impatient with the pace of progress... There were plugs I liked back then, but they took tons of DSP the computers lacked. But by this point there were unique digital processes emerging already, especially in the area of limiters, able to do things analog couldn't (full-fidelity look-ahead). Multi-band compression is a process introduced tangentially in the analog era, that flowered and matured in DSP (to be re-introduced to analog in the 21st century). Many engineers I knew could imagine, describe and pine for tools like ReNOVAtor which hadn't been invented yet. Again, the need preceded the tools.



We can't always get what we feel we need.  But if we try, sometimes, we just might find... We get what we don't "want."
Laughing    


Dave Davis wrote on Tue, 15 February 2011 08:29

...
Many engineers clearly imagined and anticipated general purpose computing appliances able to handle audio. Don't take my word for it, talk to Glenn Meadows (calling Glenn! Come in, Glenn!!) or ask Jay Petach. There were few anti-digital luddites in the pre-PC era damning computers but plenty of vision and excitement in anticipation. In fact I think you have in backwards: MOST engineers desired something a lot like a modern DAW, in an admittedly sci-fi/HAL kind of way (we grew up with Captain Kirk and Spock on TV). When I was in elementary school, my friends and I played a "space game" where an etchasketch was something essentially like an iPad - a general purpose computer to talk to our "ship", conjure images and sounds, etc... so in the mid 60s even CHILDREN imagined computers doing all kinds of tasks (many since realized)!



If we were wanting to make an LP, and we had bothered to record to reels, I'd probably only want the job done once, and, if possible, I'd like to hear it without signal jacking through digital.  If it were already digital, I'd recommend a Weiss EQ, possibly, before conversion.  Maybe an Algorithmix plugin would work.  I've even drawn in the Samplitude FFT eq with success, once.  But, in this case, we'd already have begun digital, so further processing needs only more bits for accuracy, provided the code is robust, and of course, as DC will concur, a DAC which is absolutely immune to transmission jitter.  (L:


Dave Davis wrote on Tue, 15 February 2011 08:29


Mastering engineers in particular dreamed of devices like modern digital limiters, surgical EQs, and variable band-pass options. No one pined for noise in that era, as some kind of desireable benefit; it was viewed as a necessary evil to be minimized and avoided at all costs, not vaunted (we never dreamed we'd be injecting it intentionally as "dither"). Lathes were among the first audio devices to benefit from computerization, and once CDs became common, that trend accelerated to the point where we got the first DAWs. As a profession we're at the leading edge of the shift, with few foot draggers.

I'm glad our profession's been slow to ditch great sounding analog, and that we embrace whatever works. We're lucky because most mastering gear is well-built and designed, so it never didn't sound good. We get it! But most idea taken to extremes get worse. We've all seen some sketchy practices, executed with janky old gear, being sold as some sort of "classic" fashion plate. Likewise many modern plugs fit that notion even better than worn out DBX 163s - a retro gui, atop some ugly algos with lots of injected noise isn't charming or classic, just noisy and ugly (T-RACKS!).

I'm not saying plugs are better or analog is worse. Actually both are pretty great these days in mastering. I'm saying that many engineers anticipated and dreamed of DAWs long before personal computing was a reality. In fact, thanks to positive experiences with console automation, cutting computers, and digitally-controlled analog stages in the 70s, most engineers had been exposed to the benefits. Since audio was becoming more modular in the pre-PC era (breaking "out of the box" of giant holistic consoles to specialized outboard processors), we were jonesing for computers and DAWs at work before accountants ever heard of Visicalc.

"No one wanted a computer until they were invented" is bunk, at least in audio. Even out here in the Ohio Valley hills many engineers wanted computers.


They didn't want computers to punch Jelly Roll Morton's player piano rolls, at the Vocalstyle Music Company, here in Cincinnati.  They didn't want computers to record James Brown at King.  They didn't really want computers when the Ohio Players recorded at Shad O'Shea's Counterpart Studio, either, even if they not only used a computer to pitch the lathe - but even if they used a digital delay to achieve that feed (rather than a twin-repro tape machine) - it _could_ have been done all analog.
Even if they were salivating for silicon, no one ended up having wanted a computer - until it was invented.




Andrew



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Jerry Tubb

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Re: School me on the latest-greatest plugins...
« Reply #66 on: February 15, 2011, 12:11:18 PM »

Table Of Tone wrote on Tue, 15 February 2011 07:18

The problem is that younger clients are just not used to hearing tape hiss so they instantly see it as a negative thing!


Actually the younger clients, at least here in Tejas, are the ones who have been requesting the most analog tape layback mastering from us!

They grew up with digital, so when they hear tape on the ATR, they generally dig it, "noise" and all.

JT
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Jerry Tubb

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Re: School me on the latest-greatest plugins...
« Reply #67 on: February 15, 2011, 12:27:46 PM »

Geoff Emerick de Fake wrote on Tue, 15 February 2011 02:01

Jerry Tubb wrote on Mon, 14 February 2011 23:52

 Often it's still a toss up whether to use NR, or keep all the ambience & live with a little natural tape noise.

Cheers, JT
I use Samplitude's DeNoiser; like NoNoise, it works by sampling a portion of what you want to get rid of, but it offers much more possibilities of tuning. I use it to remove hiss and/or hum. I never loose the ambience; on the contrary, removing noise makes background information more defined. NoNoise is in some ways a thing of the past, they haven't caught up with new developments. Still ok for standard restoration.
Regards,
Geoff


Can't speak to your Samplitude DeNoiser, no doubt it's good stuff. I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss Sonic NoNoise II, the newer version in sB, is reported to have even more clarity than the original, and their declicking tools are amazing. We also use iZotope RX suite of tools with good results. In general  Requests for broadband noise reduction are rare for us, even with remastering jobs. I guess it's just a different mind-set.

Yes, we've done many BBNR jobs where the improvement was amazing, (not our first rodeo bro'), but we always compare the new version with the original, often the original is just better, unprocessed. That said, a little corrective EQ can often make big improvements in noisy audio, so there are different approaches.

BTW "loose" is actually spelled "lose". Loose is like a pair of baggy pants that don't fit.

JT
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Geoff Emerick de Fake

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Re: School me on the latest-greatest plugins...
« Reply #68 on: February 15, 2011, 01:03:28 PM »

Thanks for the orthographic correction!
I don't know, it may be some kind of generation gap. I have started recording in the early 70's and always been frustrated with tape noise and distortion. I had a 20 years hiatus, fortunately avoided all the PCM501/16bit-digital/ADAT/DAT/SoundTools saga and started a new era with a proper DAW. For me it is clear as day that I won't go back. I understand that those who have gone through the whole spiel have probably had so many depressing moments their opinion is mitigated.
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bruno putzeys

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Re: School me on the latest-greatest plugins...
« Reply #69 on: February 15, 2011, 03:33:26 PM »

I'm trying to work out why, when someone asks "what's the best plugin around" the discussion has to turn into an analogue vs digital debate. The positions are clear, the heels are dug, there's no point in elaborating or restating. I, for one, was following the thread to hear whether there are some particularly smooth and unobtrusive compressors around in plug-in form. Not just brick-wall limiters but compressors one would use to good artistic effect.
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bblackwood

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Re: School me on the latest-greatest plugins...
« Reply #70 on: February 15, 2011, 04:29:12 PM »

bruno putzeys wrote on Tue, 15 February 2011 14:33

I'm trying to work out why, when someone asks "what's the best plugin around" the discussion has to turn into an analogue vs digital debate. The positions are clear, the heels are dug, there's no point in elaborating or restating. I, for one, was following the thread to hear whether there are some particularly smooth and unobtrusive compressors around in plug-in form. Not just brick-wall limiters but compressors one would use to good artistic effect.

Yah, I was thinking the same thing, Bruno.

Guys, start the analog vs digital debate in another thread - I'm genuinely interested in finding some new things to try out once I get Seq11 here and installed.
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Re: School me on the latest-greatest plugins...
« Reply #71 on: February 15, 2011, 05:35:12 PM »

Dave Davis wrote on Wed, 16 February 2011 00:29

When I was in elementary school, my friends and I played a "space game" where an etchasketch was something essentially like an iPad - a general purpose computer to talk to our "ship", conjure images and sounds, etc... so in the mid 60s even CHILDREN imagined computers doing all kinds of tasks (many since realized)!

As soon as I read that I knew that it was true...
http://itunes.apple.com/us/app/etch-a-sketch-hd-for-ipad/id3 97537481?mt=8


("I decided to leave and go to California, so I packed up my Salvador Dali print of two blindfolded dental hygienists trying to make a circle on an Etch-a-Sketch, and I headed for the highway and began hitching..." - Steven Wright).
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cass anawaty

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Re: School me on the latest-greatest plugins...
« Reply #72 on: February 15, 2011, 06:42:54 PM »

bblackwood wrote on Tue, 15 February 2011 21:29



Guys, start the analog vs digital debate in another thread - I'm genuinely interested in finding some new things to try out once I get Seq11 here and installed.

That's nice to hear--I told the Magix folks at NAMM they should get you on board with a newer version.

Let me know if it works!  Just kidding...
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masterhse

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Re: School me on the latest-greatest plugins...
« Reply #73 on: February 15, 2011, 08:47:28 PM »

masterhse wrote on Tue, 15 February 2011 11:03

Table Of Tone wrote on Tue, 15 February 2011 08:18

The problem is that younger clients are just not used to hearing tape hiss so they instantly see it as a negative thing!



Is there a plug-in to give uncompressed audio the sound of mp3s at different bit rates?



Why yes Tom, there is!

Just got this in an email:

http://blog.mixonline.com/mixblog/2011/02/10/meet-the-sonnox -game-changer/
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Jerry Tubb

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Re: School me on the latest-greatest plugins...
« Reply #74 on: February 16, 2011, 01:30:18 AM »

bblackwood wrote on Tue, 15 February 2011 15:29

bruno putzeys wrote on Tue, 15 February 2011 14:33

I'm trying to work out why, when someone asks "what's the best plugin around" the discussion has to turn into an analogue vs digital debate. The positions are clear, the heels are dug, there's no point in elaborating or restating. I, for one, was following the thread to hear whether there are some particularly smooth and unobtrusive compressors around in plug-in form. Not just brick-wall limiters but compressors one would use to good artistic effect.

Yah, I was thinking the same thing, Bruno.

Guys, start the analog vs digital debate in another thread - I'm genuinely interested in finding some new things to try out once I get Seq11 here and installed.


Good call Brad.

I assume you're looking for plug-ins that do things that you can't do with your analog path?

Cheers, JT
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