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[guru]

Dallas, did you say Santana is using Vintech X73i's on his new recording at Fantasy Studios in San Francisco??  That Rocks!!!!

[wireline]

DANGER: OFF TOPIC POST

Although the one-upmanship here is entertaining (and educational at times), one thing that I think needs to be said:

Fletcher and Dallas are to be commended for making this a charity event...regardless of the outcome, I think the charity angle reflects well on both the combatants, and shows an awful lot of class....and on behalf of the recipient charity: thank you.


Please pick up where y'all left off...

[Fletcher]

Geoff_T wrote on Mon, 30 August 2004 15:09

This "sounds like a Neve" is too much like current day politics and IMHO products should be sold on their own merit.... not by how they compare with ancient modules that had over 20 updates in their lifetimes and whose components are known to be different.

Key word in that paragraph is should.

Notice [thankfully] that the Great River MP-2NV nor the EQ-2NV were not called into play in all this... hopefully that's because they're not supposed to be "Neve-a-likes"... they're supposed to be their own module(s) with their own sound and their own function... the fact that they started with the same drawings as some old shit really doesn't come into play enough in the final presentation for them to be considered "Neve-a-be's"... which IMNTLBFHO is a good thing.

As far as making the test "complicated"... that's not the point.  The point is to make the test "comprehensive".  When we check out a piece of kit at our shop it doesn't get tested on one sound in a "solo" environment, it get's looked at as it would during the course of making an album... as part of the picture, not the entire photograph.

When you listen to one pre standing alone, one set of circuits without context, pretty much anything is going to sound "great".  Put up one channel of anything vs. one channel of something else... well we could have a situation where one mic couples with "X" pre better than another, so in that situatin "X" pre sounds best... but with "Y" microphone "X" pre will sound like total ass... then the question arrises as to how "Y" microphone with "Z" pre will sound when combined with ___, ___, and ____ in "real world" context.

Add a dozen repeats of this scenario over a few weeks time... this to me is how to "listen" to a piece of gear, not like you're getting an eye exam ["how's this? ...or is this better"? ... the first one, or the second one?] with zero reference to the cumulative effect of using a piece of gear in what might actually be something equating to a "real world" kind of situation... a situation where half a dozen mics are going to be used in context with the same pre... does that pre "jam up" the track?  Does that pre allow for a rich presentation? ...or does it get cloudy?  There are a ton of variables... so while we can turn something into a neat hoe down and festival of egos, the fact of the matter is that if we're trying to determine which tool might be a good tool for a variety of different tasks, then you have to try that tool on a variety of different tasks.

Dallas, if you still don't understand the whole concept of "context", that one sound, one pre doesn't mean shit, I highly suggest you try making a record sometime.  It's great that you've made yourself a nice company, I'm sure it's quite profitable for you... but the fact of the matter is that until you actually use this shit to make records you probably aren't going to understand the whole "gear in context" thing... one sound does not a record make... and as Geoff pointed out, living on the coat tails of a 30+ year old design that has gone through countless changes over the years probably isn't the wisest choice you could make... but none of this seems to matter to you nearly as much as being "the Neveiest".

FWIW... I can say I did use the 12kHz shelf from a Vintech module on the lead vocal on a mix once... and I thought it sounded excellent.  The mix was rejected by the label, but I hardly think it was because of the lead vocal EQ.  

[184c]

Quote:

Dallas, if you still don't understand the whole concept of "context", that one sound, one pre doesn't mean shit, I highly suggest you try making a record sometime. It's great that you've made yourself a nice company, I'm sure it's quite profitable for you... but the fact of the matter is that until you actually use this shit to make records you probably aren't going to understand the whole "gear in context" thing... one sound does not a record make... and as Geoff pointed out, living on the coat tails of a 30+ year old design that has gone through countless changes over the years probably isn't the wisest choice you could make... but none of this seems to matter to you nearly as much as being "the Neveiest".

Fletcher, let me explain something to you. I'm not some guy that graduated from college with an engineering degree (although I did attend college for engineering later in life... didn't quite graduate) and then decided to set the world on fire by ripping off old designs. I have been primarily a full time professional musician / struggling, starving studio owner for most of my  adult life. When I first started building mic preamps, I was doing so not only for business reasons, but also out of  extreme necessity. On a musician's salary, I could never afford much "pro" gear. And that's part of why I started building the Neve based preamps.

I started with almost nothing in this business. I was operating a very small studio when I started Vintech. I know all about the struggles of trying to make a good sounding recording.

You're probably an ok guy, but I think you have the wrong impression of me. I'm offering the public an alternative to paying $3000 plus for a vintage 1073 (and about the same for a new AMS Neve reissue). Hell, AMS Neve could have put me out of business a long time ago if they would offer stuff that the average guy could afford without living off of peanut butter and jelly sandwiches for two months.

If you don't think I'm basically a musician, I'd be willing to bet the house on a guitar battle between me and you. And look,
if you used our stuff on a recording and liked the eq, just leave it at that. Don't say things about my company that makes people think we're anything less than honorable, because when you do... it makes me want to call you out on it.

Thank you,

Dallas Upton
Vintech Audio

[Geoff_T]

[quote title=184c wrote on Mon, 30 August 2004 18:45]

Quote:

Hell, AMS Neve could have put me out of business a long time ago if they would offer stuff that the average guy could afford without living off of peanut butter and jelly sandwiches for two months. Thank you, Dallas Upton Vintech Audio

Hi Dallas

I'm trying to keep out of the contention of these posts but feel obliged, with my long history/loyalty to Neve to comment on that statement.

In a nutshell, it's overheads. Neve didn't copy designs, they created them. To create them they needed an R and D department with designers and very expensive test equipment. A design budget is a serious overhead on any company and this overhead has to be paid for somehow... in the price of the products sold.

There is no way that Neve could compete with a small company and the custom metalwork for a 1073 (that had to be retooled... the original was long gone) costs Hell and all more than a simple 19" rack. I take my hat off to Robin Porter for the efforts that he has put in to recreating, as close as possible, the original 1081 and 1073 modules.

I am not inclined to be so charitable to a transformer manufacturer that sells products on the back of their client's name and design authority to all and sundry.

In a way they have opened Pandora's box because a minimal internet search will reveal hundreds of souls creating clone Neve modules... to the ironic detriment of the Neve cloners!

Had Neve put their foot down in a more timely manner all the cloners would have to use Sowter and other manufacturer's products. As it is, they have restricted the AMS-Neve destined transformers solely for their use.

Whether this really matters is not really relevant. If a products sounds good and is at a good price it'll sell... just don't expect AMS-Neve to sell 1073's for a thousand bucks... there's that R & D lab to pay for!

[184c]

Hi Geoff,
I understand your sentiments completely, but when I first started buying transformers from Carnhill/St. Ives, AMS Neve hadn't produced the 1073, 1084, 1081, or  some other vintage designs for many years, and it seemed they had gone in a totally different direction.

I even called Rupert Neve in Texas and told him I was thinking about building some of the old preamp circuits. He told me that he had no proprietary right to any of the old stuff and that he basically considered the old stuff "effects processors". He also said that it might be a bit difficult to get the modules to sound "right",and told me about a Japanese group who attempted making an old style console several years earlier with only limited success.

Since nobody else seemed interested in producing the old designs, I started building some preamps and eventually began to learn details about what worked and didn't work in getting the circuits to sound right.

I must say also that not all of our products are copies of the old gear. Our X81 is more of a hybrid that required some modifications and adaptations, if you will. It also has its own character, especially with regard to the equalizer section.
We also have a couple of new products coming out soon that I won't go into detail about now.

I certainly have the utmost respect for you Geoff, as well as for the gear you make, and hope there are no hard feelings between us over any of this stuff.

Thanks,
Dallas Upton

[natpub]

I agree that, at least for me, a cumulative effect of 1073-type units would be required to tell most of them apart. For that matter, one could toss in the 1272-types as well.

While, sure, I can tell the difference between an API, V72, or 1073 on single sources, when clones enter the picture things become harder. That is not to say that distinctions among clones are not more obvious when accumulated over several tracks.

[184c]

As I said before in this thread, Fletcher is welcome to bounce
several copies of each source to free tracks on the tape machine in order to hear this cumulative effect if he finds it necessary.

But let's just let this dead horse lay.  

Dallas Upton

[Paul David]

184c wrote on Tue, 31 August 2004 07:15

As I said before in this thread, Fletcher is welcome to bounce several copies of each source to free tracks on the tape machine in order to hear this cumulative effect if he finds it necessary. But let's just let this dead horse lay.   Dallas Upton

I don't think it's a dead horse, I just think it's evolving into something a little cooler than the pissing match that it started out as. A neve-a-like listening pannel sounds like a great idea.

BTW, you could still benefit from this Dallas, If it turns out that people pick your pre over ones that cost twice as much you will move a lot of units. If, OTOH, disinterested third parties can't tell the x73i apart from the origianl 1073's (like you claim they can't) you will get rediculous clout from this experience... And move a lot of units.

So far I think you've handled Fletcher's barrage of insults like a true champ... Be a strong finisher, keep your cool and the naysayers, (which are few and far in between) will have nothing bad to say about you or your products. Punk out now and it'll be a big let down.

BTW, didn't Charles Dye choose an x73i prototype out of a bunch of big name pres when he did a vocal shoot out? that should get your courage up... People dig you man!

[Oldfart]

Yep Dallas, do us all a favor and go thrue with this.

[Turbo]

Dallas, I wasn't even thinking of x73i, but after all this who ha I'm going to give it a go.


Nick

[Fletcher]

184c wrote on Mon, 30 August 2004 21:45

Fletcher, let me explain something to you. I'm not some guy that graduated from college with an engineering degree (although I did attend college for engineering later in life... didn't quite graduate) and then decided to set the world on fire by ripping off old designs.

... too easy ... [please acknowledge that I have indeed shown some restraint]

Quote:

I have been primarily a full time professional musician / struggling, starving studio owner for most of my  adult life.

It's been said that you've gotta suffer if you wanna sing the blues... just curious, are you under some impression that I grew up with a silver spoon?

We all have to start somewhere, and I'm not going to try to "out poor" you... but bro, you're barking up the wrong motherfucking tree if you're looking for an ounce of "I was born a poor black child" kinda sympathy.  You do what you do to put food on your table... fine, but who here hasn't "struggled"?

Quote:

When I first started building mic preamps, I was doing so not only for business reasons, but also out of  extreme necessity. On a musician's salary, I could never afford much "pro" gear. And that's part of why I started building the Neve based preamps.

So... now that you're no longer on a musician's salary... what kind of car do you drive?  My point being that you're profiting from the prior work of another [see Mr. Tanner's R&D post for details]... "Neve based" that just happen to sound [per your claims] "identical" to an original Neve module... I mean they cancel out 100% when gain matched and put out of polarity... you were using that shtick for years bro... years.  While you may not be using it now, you were using that marketing fodder before... so it's still in play... and golly, it really was an excellent party trick for the rubes...

Quote:

I started with almost nothing in this business. I was operating a very small studio when I started Vintech. I know all about the struggles of trying to make a good sounding recording.

Dallas, let me explain something to you.  I remember you from when you used to call the M-A shop back when it did "used equipment", looking for parts.  I thought that was a fairly noble endeavor because I had an understanding of what you were trying to do.  No harm, no foul... it's all good, you built yourself some pre's for your studio... but then you found that marketing those pre's under the "N" word was way, way, way!!! more profitable than trying to run a studio... so you ran with it... nothing wrong with that, but please spare me the 'righteous indignation' bullshit... OK?

I think if we look at it, owning some equipment does not make you a recording engineer.  Any engineer worth his salt will look at the cumulative effects of using any piece of hardware.  Unless you're in the business of recording single sounds for release, as an engineer you have to look at the sum of the sounds to understand the music as a whole.  If you don't look at the cumulative effects of the use of a piece of gear, you are in serious danger of painting yourself into a corner as an engineer... or at least that's what I've found in the 3 weeks since I gradiated rekordin kolege... hmmm, maybe I've been around longer than 3 weeks, because if I had only been around a few weeks I'd be subject to believing the 'buzz word bullshit' they throw around in the rekordin department of the local shop where you can buy picks, straps, and strings.

In other words, just because I own a few guitars and amps, that doesn't make me a guitar player by any stretch of the imagination... I'll be the first to tell you my guitar playing is at best laughable, however I'm pretty fuckin' good at playing the instrument I like to call "recording studio".

So... seeing as you're a guitar player too [and maybe you're a guitar player like I'm a recording engineer... and you're a recording engineer like I'm a guitar player]... let's say I went out and found some parts and put together a Marshall 'Plexi' for my own use... no harm no foul... right?

How about if I then tried to sell them with the statement, "these amps are every bit a real Marshall 'Plexi' for nickels on the dollar" I would probably meet some resistance to the statement.

Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm the resistance to your statement that your modules are every bit an old Neve module.

That my friend is marketing horseshit, horseshit I do not suffer gladly.

If you just built the damn things without the Banjo Mart buzz words "it's just like a Neve but for thousands less" then it would be another pre-amp which could be chosen for it's associated characteristics... but you chose to market it as the answer to all things Neve and unaffordable, and I have chosen to say "horseshit, it's not a fucking Neve module".

Now people may get down with these things on regular basis, people may love the damn things, don't understand how they ever went through a day in their lives without one of the damn things... and good on them.  Any piece of equipment that can be used to make a recording that captures the essence of a performance is a good thing, if people feel that Vintech stuff has contributed in a positive manner to their work who the fuck am I to say that it hasn't.  My point being that I have a serious fucking problem with your marketing/promotion.  What I've heard of the modules hasn't thrilled me... but hey, that's a personal problem on my end... right?

Let's take a couple minutes and at another pre-amp and EQ that came from a similar set of drawings as yours... the Great River MP-2NV and EQ-2NV... the pre-amp was in development for over a year... it employs all kinds of different components, had specific transformers designed for the circuit that were different than the original... the EQ was in design for over a year and half, probably close to two years, and while it does use a couple of inductors in the two mid bands that were indeed salvaged from some 1081 parts, the rest of it is quite a bit more than a simple "variation on a theme".

I'm glad you're able to make a product that's selling like hotcakes... I sincerely hope you're enjoying the ride.  The reason a man starts a company is to grow that company, you sir are no exception.  I take umbrage that you have made claims that are not true... what I find fascinating is that you find that I take umbrage with your statements to the heart.  Like you need to convince yourself that you're "doing good" and not just trying to legitimize your "wedding band" manufacturing thing.

The fact of the matter is that you're making money, so why the fuck should you care what some pimp that doesn't put food on your table thinks about your stuff?  

If you have any interest in presenting an actual balanced exposition of different "Neve-a-likes" I'd be more than happy to attend, even assist with the assembly of such an endeavor... if you want to run a mic through a channel and try to make a judgment from a stand alone, accapella, irrelevant, non-contextual sound... I have better things to do with my day than assist you with your marketing horseshit.

Ya know, the funniest part of this whole thing is that I get the distinct feeling that if we went out for a beer, we'd probably get along just fine as long as we didn't talk about audio gear...

[RaGe]

If I may ...
Maybe the pre-recorded tracks should be totally new to all parties involved?

[Fletcher]

RaGe wrote on Tue, 31 August 2004 09:46

If I may ... Maybe the pre-recorded tracks should be totally new to all parties involved?

Fine by me... got any?

What I think we'll all find most educational is if you have "DI"ed tracks that can be 're-amped' for "original" sound sources... these sources then added to a balance as if it were an original tracking session... the session I mentioned is the only thing I have in my posession that has those kind of DI tracks... but if you have something other than that, I know from my perspective I would much rather that be employed than otherwise unrealeased product in my charge.

[Geoff_T]

184c wrote on Mon, 30 August 2004 20:54

I certainly have the utmost respect for you Geoff, as well as for the gear you make, and hope there are no hard feelings between us over any of this stuff. Thanks, Dallas Upton

Hi Dallas

No, there's no hard feelings, I was just answering the point you made about Neve. I would never comment about your product as I have never heard one (other than briefly at the AES) nor is it my place to comment on other folk's products.

The odd thing is that I feel more dedicated (defensive even) about a company I left nearly 20 years ago than Rupert apparently does. In my entire life (including the 14+ years I worked at Neve... that overlapped Rupert's presence by 4 years) I don't think I've swapped more than a few sentences with him...

My last conversation was at the AES some years back. I explained how a client of mine was very excited because he had bought the Phillips classical music console http://www.auroraaudio.net/aa_html/neve_gallery/NeveConsoles /phillips_classical.html and he replied, "Oh, tell him to buy an Amek."

I thought that very sad...