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[Oldfart]

Hello,

as things evolve I thought we'd look at this question again !

Of all the 1073 wannabees, which is closest to the original (sound wise of course)

All opinions welcomed,

Oldfart

[Aardvark]

Oldfart wrote on Thu, 26 August 2004 21:55

...Of all the 1073 wannabees, which is closest to the original (sound wise of course) All opinions welcomed, Oldfart

The sound of the Pre or the sound of the EQ section??


And while we are here...what about the 1066? Long under appreciated and yet hugely similar to the 1073...if you want the pre sound of the 1073 for less coin a 1066 is perfect (from my point of view).


Cheers,
Aardvark

[Turbo]

Hopefully the Chandler LTD-1 is. Have not tried it yet but one is arriving at my place next week.


Nick

[mardyk]

We have 2 Vintech X73i at our studio which are great. I don't know if they sound exactly like a 1073, but they sound friggin' good to me. The eq is amazing for drums. Takes 5 seconds to dial in a kick or snare sound. They're pretty cheap too.

[Fletcher]

What sounds like a Neve 1073?  Why a Neve 1073 of course.  AMS/Neve has reissued them, and from what I have seen/heard they're the only "Neve-a-likes" that got it right, and why wouldn't they, after all they are "Neve" aren't they?

In various conversations with Robin Porter [part of the original "Neve" crew who was behind the 'reissues'... as well as the "88R"] the apparent reason the other "Neve-a-likes" have never sounded right to me is because the output transformer indeed isn't right.  There is a mythical quality that has been attached to the low end of the "original/descended from the mountain top" version that doesn't exist in a properly maintained original unit, and exists as a pile of slop in the newly revamped "Neve-a-likes".

When the output transformer is correct, when the board layout is correct [how components interact on a circuit board, how trace widths affect the tone, how hand wiring (larger wire, moves more current than any circuit board... though larger traces on the board can be of assistance, but there are other trade offs that I'm not going into here) affects the tone, how the power supply affects the tone, yada, yada, yada], when the grounding is right and the units have sufficient current on demand... then, and only then will you get something that sounds like a "Neve"... in the case of the 30+ year old ones... when the capacitors have been changed at least during one of the Clinton administrations and the switches have been cleaned/replaced sometime since Bush-I, then you'll get something that resembles a 1073.

There are folks who absolutely rave about the Vintech stuff... which to me is kinda like trying to call a "PT Cruiser" a 'hot-rod', but hey, these folks have obviously never driven a real hot rod so from their perspective, it's better than the stuff they had in their racks... mazel tov.

A year or so ago I joined a friend when he went car shopping... along the way we saw Ford's "reissue" of the 'T-Bird'.  I couldn't believe what I was seeing... the thing was a total piece of shit down to the plastic grill [but then, I'm old and have seen (and yeah, heard) classic 'T-Bird's]... I was on vacation last week and saw this blonde little 20 something behind the wheel of the T-Bird reissue smiling like she'd gotten it properly for the very first time... she has no idea what a real one is like [and more importantly, probably doesn't give a shit what a real T-Bird was like]... damn, she seemed to love being behind the wheel of this thing... so who's to say it's wrong if she's having fun?

[184c]

Quote:

When the output transformer is correct, when the board layout is correct [how components interact on a circuit board, how trace widths affect the tone, how hand wiring (larger wire, moves more current than any circuit board... though larger traces on the board can be of assistance, but there are other trade offs that I'm not going into here) affects the tone, how the power supply affects the tone, yada, yada, yada], when the grounding is right and the units have sufficient current on demand... then, and only then will you get something that sounds like a "Neve"... There are folks who absolutely rave about the Vintech stuff... which to me is kinda like trying to call a "PT Cruiser" a 'hot-rod', but hey, these folks have obviously never driven a real hot rod so from their perspective, it's better than the stuff they had in their racks... mazel tov.

Since you are obviously an authority on the sound of vintage Neve 1073's vs the sound of our X73, I will once again (third time) invite you to put your money where your mouth is.

Fantasy studios in San Francisco, who recently purchased (on the advice of Jim Gaines, Carlos Santana's recording engineer) some of our X73i's for some Santana  sessions they did a while back (they were used on his guitar rig), has graciously agreed to allow us the use of one of their large rooms for listening tests during the AES show if we need it.

You are more than welcome to participate in blind listening tests of our X73i (our least expensive model) vs a couple of vintage 1073's and a couple of AMS Neve reissue 1073's. If you can pick out the X73i on four or five different sources either in a mix or just listening to the modules alone (your choice), we will donate a thousand dollars to your favorite charity, if not, you can donate a thousand to our's.

Thanks,
Dallas Upton
Vintech Audio

[Fletcher]

How about you not try an impossible test... if I could pick the X-73 out of a mix... fuckin' spare me [I'll tell ya what... how about I bring along an album I mixed and you tell me if a song on the album was mixed on a Neve desk, or was mixed on a Trident desk, or an AMEK desk] how about we do the "one on one-esque" shoot out thing you so love to do so much.  

I'll put a grand on the table, you put a grand on the table... we'll listen to 8 modules cumulatively on stems of 4 stereo submixes [if 8 channels of the AMS/Neve reissues aren't available to you, let me know... I'm quite sure I could have them made available to me for this kind of thing]... if your 8 channels sound "best" then I'll keep my mouth shut from that day forward and be happy to donate $1,000 USD to your favorite charity... if your 8 channels do not prevail then you'll donate $1,000 USD to "The College Fund" and kiss my ass (tongue optional) on camera.

Is is a bet?

I beleive I'm coming in on Thursday afternoon, and generally need some time to make sure my ears clear after a flight [in other words, Thurday night is out of the question]... so while Friday and Saturday nights are no good for me [previously booked engagements]... I'm out Sunday AM first thing so I can get my ass home to go 'trick or treating' with my kidz [a.k.a "the really important shit in life"] how about we try to schedule this on like Friday afternoon?  

That would work for me, how about you? ...or will you still be doing the out-of-polarity party trick at your booth?

[184c]

With the 8 channels at a time vs 8 channels at a time, levels are going to be more difficult to match, additionally, by pure chance alone, you have a 50% chance of guessing correctly which set is the AMS Neves. You are also eliminating from the experiment the vintage Neve 1073's which are the only true standard to judge the clones by.

As I said, we can take two vintage 1073's, two AMS Neve reissues, and one X73i... and if you can pick out the X73i from the other modules on four or five different instruments and or vocals... say guitar, bass, male vocal, female vocal, kick drum... then you'll win the contest. You don't have to listen to them in a mix, just one at a time with the levels matched precisely. Instead of there being a one in two chance of guessing correctly, there will be a one in about three thousand chance of you correctly picking the X73i out in every test by chance. And of course this way, we'll be able to include the vintage 1073's in the test.
Thanks,
Dallas Upton
Vintech

[Turbo]

Hey Fletcher
Is the Chandler LTD-1 close to the 1073 sound or is it out there on it's own?

Thanks mate
Nick

[arimaka]

I would like to see this test happen...

Haven't heard the X73 so can't comment.

fletch: how does the mp2-nv differ soundwise to vintage 1073's? neve clones?

[184c]

I can assure you, win or lose, I won't be kissing anyone's ass.
I'm just tired of Fletcher dismissing people's positive comments about our gear as coming from folks who don't know the difference.

Dallas Upton
Vintech Audio

[Nathan Eldred]

Oldfart wrote on Thu, 26 August 2004 21:55

Hello, as things evolve I thought we'd look at this question again ! Of all the 1073 wannabees, which is closest to the original (sound wise of course) All opinions welcomed, Oldfart

I answered your question by PM.

[Paul David]

184c wrote on Mon, 30 August 2004 00:34

I can assure you, win or lose, I won't be kissing anyone's ass. I'm just tired of Fletcher dismissing people's positive comments about our gear as coming from folks who don't know the difference. Dallas Upton Vintech Audio

I understand where you're coming from, but it does seem like an unfair test to me.

Fletch wants 8 of yours and 8 ams', you want 2 channels each, plus original 1073's on four sources. What about a compromise; all three pres on three different sources. If Fletch can spot the x73 three times in a row... Pucker up. If not, then you'll go home with the dub.

[Fletcher]

184c wrote on Sun, 29 August 2004 19:34

I can assure you, win or lose, I won't be kissing anyone's ass. I'm just tired of Fletcher dismissing people's positive comments about our gear as coming from folks who don't know the difference. Dallas Upton Vintech Audio

Golly Dallas... I thought it was implied that there would be a rack of original 1073's included in the pogrom... I guess I should have spelled it out using small words for you, but alas, what we have here is a failure to communicate.

I'm sure your modules hold up just fine and dandy in a "one on one" kind of scenario... I'm sure the pre's on a Mackie will hold pace with them in a "one on one" kind of scenario as well.

If you're so damn sure of your boxes being the absolute shiznet then "eight on eight on eight" will be the proper manner for comparison... if you're too chicken to put your shit up in that kind of a test... well that speaks volumes now don't it.

Let's remember, you're the one who proposed the side by each testing... I'm just saying that in order to make any kind of side by side by side test valid more than one module needs to be employed.

As for level matching... c'mon, you can do better than that for weaseling out of this... level matching ain't rocket surgery.  At the front of each track [or set of stems] we run a tone.  Feed that tone back into whatever desk will have to be used for summing, match the levels on that desk so that all 24 modules are within .1db of each other... hit play, and listen intently.

Please notice, that I have zero to gain here and a good measure of credibility to lose [we don't pimp old modules, we don't pimp AMS/Neve stuff, we don't pimp your stuff], and you really can only benefit from this test ['cuz let's face it... even if you do lose you can point to how much less your stuff costs without losing face... not to mention the free advertising/PR you're getting from this]...

So after the $1,000- I'm really putting more on the table than you... so if your modules prevail as reining champion, then like I said I'll shut the fuck up where they're concerned... or more than likely replay the story about how I set up this "evaluation" was damned if your modules didn't rock on [which let's face it, wouldn't suck in your marketing and promotion angles a damn bit now would it]... on the "up the ante" part of your world... that photograph would just sort of cheer up the office a bit... so, whaddaya say there big fella... do you, or don't you have confidence in your product?

[Fletcher]

Turbo wrote on Sun, 29 August 2004 18:05

Is the Chandler LTD-1 close to the 1073 sound or is it out there on it's own?

Well... it's pretty "Neve-esque" but certainly different... aside from the EQ points being quite different, there seems to be a good bit of difference in the character of the low end as well as what I've found to be a measure of better midrange clarity... but as always... YMMV

arimaka wrote on Sun, 29 August 2004 18:10

how does the mp2-nv differ soundwise to vintage 1073's? neve clones?

Ya know... this question is kinda on the "been-there/done-that" train... there is a site that answers many of these kinds of questions... it's the Mercenary Editions site... the specific page that addresses this is: http://mercenaryeditions.com/mp-2nv.shtml but you might want to give the whole thing a read... or not.