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Author Topic: live drum overheads- position?  (Read 3416 times)

Eric Ruud

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Re: live drum overheads- position?
« Reply #15 on: April 22, 2005, 06:55:55 pm »

Kent Clemmons wrote on Fri, 22 April 2005 13:12

I have done a number of jazz and R&B acts and never felt the need to use an OH. What size room are you in? Usually I get enough cymbal from a) the cymbal itself and b) the open vocal mics.


There are two reasons for amplifying something in a live setting.

1. the obvious. it is not loud enough.
2. the less obvious. You want to make a certain part of the sound overpower a less desirable other part of the sound.

For example, you may be hearing plenty of cymbals already, but it sounds really washy and you can't hear any of the attack. It's tricky to do well, but if you get the close mic in the mix at just the right level it will bring the drums more into control and they will feel more intimate to the audience. Or perhaps you just need them to sound a little fuller because the room is very bright and thin. Or you need some sparkle. Or whatever it is.

In order to do this you have to have the right acoustical conditions and the right kind of music. Just keep in mind amplification of an instrument can be an element of tonal/perceptual control just as much as it is an element of volume control.

As a mix engineer you want to have those kind of options available so you can create a pleasing spectrum of sound for your audience, who by the way will notice the tonal quality of the whole mix more than any specifics.

-Eric
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Eric Ruud

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Re: live drum overheads- position?
« Reply #16 on: April 22, 2005, 07:04:40 pm »

sdevino wrote on Mon, 28 March 2005 17:45

Loco wrote on Fri, 25 March 2005 12:37

 The ambiance will be more pleasant and catching when you have a sound that seems to come out of everywhere rather than from a single spot. When you do mono, the sound seems to come from the left speaker if you're sitting close to the left side, and from a moving target somewhere on the stage if you're lucky to be right in front. When you do stereo, some stuff will seem to come from somewhere else in the room. In my touring days, I used L-C-R for clubs so the people on the tables to the right would have the singer focused on the stage and not to the guitar player closer to them. Through the center one I would shoot snare, kick, and bass as well, and sometimes a little bit of guitars.



This will only occur for a select few and only if you are lucky, the room is small and the sound system is great. Try using a delay for the sake of Haas effect on something like a live jazz band, Delaying the mains 0.8 mS for each foot until you essentially place them behind the drummer, and the entire audioence will localize thesound sources as they come from the stage (due to Haas effect).

i.e. if the stage is 15 feet deep, put a 12ms delay on the entire house mix (not the monitors). This will allow the audience to localize all the players from where they are on stage because they will hear the stage sound first, even if the PA is many dB louder. This will sound better than any attempt at stereo or LCR IMO.

Steve




Do you have success doing this with cheaper digital delays? I'm trying to find something to do this with for a small folk club that's not going to choke my relatively pure, unprocessed analog sound. They're only a couple feet behind the speakers, but I'd like to improve the transparency of the system in any way possible. It's the sort of music where you'd like to pretend there are no speakers....

And on the note of monitor delays, I've heard that a 20ms delay on monitors will allow the musicians to hear themselves just as well but will dramatically raise the threshold of feedback. I don't have the equipment to do this, so I've never tried. Any thoughts?

-Eric
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Eric Ruud

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Re: live drum overheads- position?
« Reply #17 on: April 22, 2005, 07:15:00 pm »

lord wrote on Thu, 14 April 2005 18:56

I have the same kind of gig coming up.

Are there any more recommendations out there for pumping jazz kit through a club PA without f-ing it up too bad?

What is a good choice of overhead mic?

Thanks!


I've really been digging the use of a multipattern mic for live sound lately. Some people I work with are really paranoid about using condensers live in any capacity whatsoever because they are so "hot", but I'm more likely to try and tailor my pickup pattern to the application - ahem...reason in audio - so that I can pick up what I want and reject what I don't.

For example, with figure 8, people mostly worry about how it picks up the rear, but what they don't think about is that it has great side rejection, and when doing drum overheads with amps and speakers and monitors on the SIDES of the drums, this might be exactly what you want. It kind of depends on what's up on the back side of the mic, too, though....

If you know what kind of situation you're gonna have every night or if you're on a small budget it might not be necessary, but AKG 414's are well suited for this and will almost always be acceptable to touring acts and knowledgable drummers.

-Eric
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lord

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Re: live drum overheads- position?
« Reply #18 on: April 23, 2005, 09:36:16 am »

Eric, thanks for the tips.

In this case I am the drummer, not the soundman. But I have to make a recommendation. Normally I prefer that this act is unamplified, but in some cases I know that there's a lot of details missing at the back of the hall. It is good to know that a 414 can be used in this application. That gives me a good point of reference. Thanks.

Also, I agree with what was said about micing jazz bass drum. The phase is so much less of an issue than with 1 headed rock kick where almost 100% of the information is located in the transient.  
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ted nightshade

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Re: live drum overheads- position?
« Reply #19 on: April 24, 2005, 08:43:21 am »

lord wrote on Sat, 23 April 2005 06:36

Eric, thanks for the tips.

In this case I am the drummer, not the soundman. But I have to make a recommendation. Normally I prefer that this act is unamplified, but in some cases I know that there's a lot of details missing at the back of the hall.  


I favor a single Schoeps mk41/CMC6 for this kind of thing. For the whole act. Gets the detail into the PA. No phase issues with a single mic. The key is awesome off axis response- a 4011 is another good bet.

Edited to say- that's with no stage monitors.
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Ted Nightshade aka Cowan

There's a sex industry too.
Or maybe you prefer home cookin'?
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