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[Edward Vinatea]

kats wrote on Sun, 23 January 2011 13:13

Edward, where do you draw the line? Are we allowed to steal from any group of people that we think make too much money? Who gets to decide? It's called government and taxation. IF you feel the disparity between rich and poor is too great then lobby for higher taxes on the rich. Sanctioning theft is no way to re-distribute money. That's called chaos.

Here is a crazy idea that has been proposed a long time ago:

Make all recordings free, but you still retain the writing credit forever. And, since everything is in the computer, forget CDs, DVDs, etc. We are only talking about music, of course.

Regards,

Edward

[mgod]

Edward Vinatea wrote on Sun, 23 January 2011 10:22

Here is a crazy idea that has been proposed a long time ago: Make all recordings free, but you still retain the writing credit forever. And, since everything is in the computer, forget CDs, DVDs, etc. We are only talking about music, of course.

Make all recordings free is not an idea. Its reality. In our present technological stage the moment you take a recording out of your home in any form it may as well be regarded as free. As youtube shows, people are willing to go to great lengths with files they can get. Even vinyl can be easily digitized now, and made free. So a vinyl only release is a momentary stopgap. And the more theft, the more popular you are.

I think we're about to see a battle between "content providers" on the visual/storytelling side and the ISPs, although Comcast buying NBC short circuits that fight a bit. Look for Google to fight Time Warner, etc.

[CWHumphrey]

Edward Vinatea wrote on Sun, 23 January 2011 10:22

Here is a crazy idea that has been proposed a long time ago: Make all recordings free, but you still retain the writing credit forever. And, since everything is in the computer, forget CDs, DVDs, etc. We are only talking about music, of course. Regards, Edward

You're right, it's a total crazy idea.

I gotta give it to you, you have some real balls to walk into a forum of professionals, and tell us we should be working for free.

Cheers,

[Edward Vinatea]

CWHumphrey wrote on Sun, 23 January 2011 16:08

Edward Vinatea wrote on Sun, 23 January 2011 10:22 Here is a crazy idea that has been proposed a long time ago: Make all recordings free, but you still retain the writing credit forever. And, since everything is in the computer, forget CDs, DVDs, etc. We are only talking about music, of course. Regards, Edward You're right, it's a total crazy idea. I gotta give it to you, you have some real balls to walk into a forum of professionals, and tell us we should be working for free. Cheers,

I am not sure if you are trolling, or you simply didn't get what I said. And, I don't know if you are a performer, an engineer or both. But, I never said that you -or anybody, should "work for free". I said many things, but certainly not that. However, giving the music away for those who want it free has been proposed before I did and with the logic that it would promote the artist(s) who wrote the material and are performing it in music venues. Some artists already have taken it upon themselves to offer their music with a donation model and some give it away at concerts. In essence, music records can be promotional tools rather than instruments of wealth and exploitation by corporations. IMO, if you eliminate the legal consequences of downloading music online, most likely, it will level the playing field for every artist known and unknown, and only those who have real talent will be in people's minds. People will come to shows to support the artist{s} they love, not because some corporation shoved them down their throats, but because they really love these artists. In addition, this wouldn't affect engineers because, regardless the fact that the music is distributed for free, it still has to be recorded and broadcast anyway.

I hope this clears it for you,

Edward

[CWHumphrey]

If some artists give away their albums, then good on them.

But who covers the cost of making the album?  You're on a recording forum, after all.  Many of us on here record for a living.

I'm no troll, just responding to your words.

Cheers,

[DarinK]

I have two big problems with the idea that a recording just be a promo for a live tour.
First, nowadays the money in touring is rarely/barely enough to break even, let alone pay for a recording, except for some already-established huge stars.  The argument for non-profitable tours used to be that they were promotions for the album.  Now the argument for non-profitable albums is that they are promotions for the tour?
Second, a recording is its own separate work of art.  It's kind of like how I don't consider films to be promotions for the stage play.

[Gio]

DarinK wrote on Sun, 23 January 2011 17:42

I have two big problems with the idea that a recording just be a promo for a live tour. First, nowadays the money in touring is rarely/barely enough to break even, let alone pay for a recording, except for some already-established huge stars.  The argument for non-profitable tours used to be that they were promotions for the album.  Now the argument for non-profitable albums is that they are promotions for the tour? Second, a recording is its own separate work of art.  It's kind of like how I don't consider films to be promotions for the stage play.

+1

IMO, giving away music is just feeding the monster.

[Edward Vinatea]

We can theorize how things might go forever, but the fact is, we've never done this idea collectively and it's a lot easier to be skeptical and knock it down before it ever happened.

I don't know too much about concert tours, but if I am an 'artist' with a solid fan base and I can't make a living from my live presentations, then maybe something is fundamentally wrong with that system as well and it has to be reformed.

To start with, get rid of all the middle people, then use smaller auditoriums and don't make your shows with expensive props and visual effects. Also, I don't understand how anyone can compare making films to making music recordings. Sure, I can go outside with my video camera and shoot a movie with friends, but I sincerely doubt any theater owner would want to show it. The budget for making a movie is so much higher than making a record, there is no comparison whatsoever and it shouldn't be made free to download.

Carter asked who pays for the album, I can think of many creative ways, but this would become OT. At the end of the day, good engineers will always be in demand. You see, not everyone feels they have to record themselves and many artists I know are more than happy to pay extra for a good recording, anytime.

Giving the online music away does not feed, but actually kills the monster, and it may also allow people to get involved in music {a lot less} for the wrong reasons

FWIW

Edward

[CWHumphrey]

Edward Vinatea wrote on Sun, 23 January 2011 15:38

Carter asked who pays for the album, I can think of many creative ways, but this would become OT. At the end of the day, good engineers will always be in demand. You see, not everyone feels they have to record themselves and many artists I know are more than happy to pay extra for a good recording, anytime.

See?  We aren't so far apart after all.

I would welcome your thoughts (or anyone's) ideas on this very thing.  I would also say, that any discussion on this is dead-on topic for this thread.  

But, at the risk of being redundant, where does this money come from to record?  

Cheers,

[Bill Mueller]

Edward Vinatea wrote on Sun, 23 January 2011 18:38

I don't know too much about concert tours, Edward

Edward,

It shows.

Bill

[eightyeightkeys]

What strikes me immediately is how weak and fragmented we are within the industry and how people in certain positions are able to take advantage of it.

Some music composers on another forum are constantly lamenting the apathy of their peers and struck up threads about a separate composers union which would have been somehow affiliated with IATSE and posting threads about meetings, etc...Not too many replies, not too many willing to make the effort to make it work. You would have thought there would have been replies in the hundreds.

We constantly point out the unfair royalty rates for composers of instrumental music versus vocal (pop) music within PRO's. Does it ever get changed ? Do we march together against these unfair practices?

My wife, being a professional illustrator, is a member of CAPIC. CAPIC has regular meetings, get togethers, presentations on the state of the industry, standards on what illustrators and photographers SHOULD get paid for typical work and why everyone should STICK to these fair and standard pay scales. And, you know, they stick to their guns these illustrators, photographers and designers and they get paid WELL for their work. Good for them.

Composers Interview From Hell :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4Lg4sc_Iuk
 

[Bill Mueller]

Edward Vinatea wrote on Sun, 23 January 2011 13:22

kats wrote on Sun, 23 January 2011 13:13 Edward, where do you draw the line? Are we allowed to steal from any group of people that we think make too much money? Who gets to decide? It's called government and taxation. IF you feel the disparity between rich and poor is too great then lobby for higher taxes on the rich. Sanctioning theft is no way to re-distribute money. That's called chaos. Here is a crazy idea that has been proposed a long time ago: Make all recordings free, but you still retain the writing credit forever. And, since everything is in the computer, forget CDs, DVDs, etc. We are only talking about music, of course. Regards, Edward

Edward,

This idea has been pushed by IP criminals for ten years. It has never been anything but BS.

Bill

[Gio]

Edward Vinatea wrote on Sun, 23 January 2011 18:38

Also, I don't understand how anyone can compare making films to making music recordings. Sure, I can go outside with my video camera and shoot a movie with friends, but I sincerely doubt any theater owner would want to show it. The budget for making a movie is so much higher than making a record, there is no comparison whatsoever and it shouldn't be made free to download.

Art is art, whether it costs $10M or $10K or $10 to make. Production cost should not determine whether one should charge for their product or give it away for free.

Quote:

Carter asked who pays for the album, I can think of many creative ways, but this would become OT. At the end of the day, good engineers will always be in demand. You see, not everyone feels they have to record themselves and many artists I know are more than happy to pay extra for a good recording, anytime.

On the flip side, there are countless more who opt to DIY their records, for better or worse.

Quote:

Giving the online music away does not feed, but actually kills the monster, and it may also allow people to get involved in music {a lot less} for the wrong reasons

I disagree. The more artists give away their music, the more the consumer will expect, until there comes a point where there is no turning back. We may have reached that point.

[Edward Vinatea]

Bill Mueller wrote on Sun, 23 January 2011 19:33

Edward Vinatea wrote on Sun, 23 January 2011 18:38 I don't know too much about concert tours, Edward Edward, It shows. Bill

Bill, you maybe 10 years older than me, but it doesn't show.

Regards,

Edward

[Wireline]

Lets not forget that whatever one invests into their product is usually a representation of the value they place into the product itself and the people involved.

If they know beforehand they are going to give it away, what does that tell you about what they think of you and your contribution to the effort?  What are the recipients of said product going to think, knowing they just got something for free that was made specifically for everyone to get for free?  Zero value...

Maybe that's one reason why people aren't buying - they don't place as much value into what artists do, what we do anymore, since there is so much available, and so much is being done for free anyway

Jes saying...