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Author Topic: Fair compensation for artistic endevours  (Read 42524 times)

Bill Mueller

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Re: Fair compensation for artistic endevours
« Reply #15 on: January 22, 2011, 02:45:26 PM »

Bob Olhsson wrote on Fri, 21 January 2011 21:43

 http://www.copyrightalliance.org/content.php?key=copyright_a nd_you

Bob,

I joined. Thanks!

Bill
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"Don't take it personally. But this shit is a science." J.J.Blair

“The Internet is only a means of communication,” he wrote. “It is not an amorphous extraterrestrial body with an entitlement to norms that run counter to the fundamental principles of human rights. There is nothing in the criminal or civil law which legalizes that which is otherwise illegal simply because the transaction takes place over the Internet.” Irish judge, Peter Charleton

mattrussell

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Re: Fair compensation for artistic endevours
« Reply #16 on: January 22, 2011, 03:20:57 PM »

our culture is to blame and i can't see us or anyone else changing it.  i'm not saying we should just give up, but no one but the artists and those who make their living working with and for them really understands this.  as wrong as we know it is, most i talk with about this think that the general public believes that music should be free.  we know it can't be and they have no idea the future cost of this belief in "free".  

tell an average american teenager you know that by downloading music for free, they're stealing from their favorite artists and as a result, soon those artists won't be able to make records at all because they need to go find a "real job" to earn a living.  

then, tell them you know where you can get their favorite artist's new record for free, right now on the internet, long before it comes out OR they can wait and buy it on iTunes, amazon or best buy.  

given the two options (wait and purchase OR now for free), which do you think MOST would take?

i bet your answer is the same as my own and that should indicate where everything is going - further down before it even considers coming back up.  right now, i don't think there's a light at the end of the tunnel.  not because we can't see it, but because it's not there.  
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matt russell
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Tidewater

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Re: Fair compensation for artistic endevours
« Reply #17 on: January 22, 2011, 03:38:10 PM »

I agree with Matt.

About live:

When I was touring, the wheels came off the bus when the venues closed. The show was too expensive to be viable, and most of the remaining rooms couldn't hold the cases for the lighting. Band change. 4 piece without a crew playing more regional gigs. Venues changed formats. Money went away. Band change. Duo with a local guy. I played half the gigs for free because they weren't paying enough for 2 people.

People still want to see live music, and a fantastic show.. only they want to watch it in a 640x480 frame while they read www.theonion.com. (for the most part)

When touring, I used to see maybe 30-40 other shows a year. I don't think I have even seen a person playing solo guitar in a couple years, while not in a studio.

Slowly, so slowly.. then everything, and all at once. Hard to deal with. Reality has a massive dynamic range.
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kats

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Re: Fair compensation for artistic endevours
« Reply #18 on: January 22, 2011, 05:58:37 PM »

mattrussell wrote on Sat, 22 January 2011 14:20

our culture is to blame and i can't see us or anyone else changing it.  i'm not saying we should just give up, but no one but the artists and those who make their living working with and for them really understands this.  as wrong as we know it is, most i talk with about this think that the general public believes that music should be free.  we know it can't be and they have no idea the future cost of this belief in "free".  




In Canada about 10 years ago everyone was pirating satellite TV. The Canadian government came down hard and even put millions in an advertising campaign to educate the public. The satellite companies also made it a PITA by killing the cards every three months or so as well. In the end, most people bought subscriptions and the pirates are the minority.

The point:

It is easy to change the mindset of the people if the will is there. Don't think it is impossible, the opposite is true. The clear problem is the lack of government leadership on this issue.

Fair compensation? It is whatever the market dictates it should be in an economy where a black market is not allowed to thrive. Just look back over the decades before internet piracy if you want to  come up with a number.
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Tony K.
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DarinK

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Re: Fair compensation for artistic endevours
« Reply #19 on: January 22, 2011, 06:11:47 PM »

kats wrote on Sat, 22 January 2011 14:58

mattrussell wrote on Sat, 22 January 2011 14:20

our culture is to blame and i can't see us or anyone else changing it.  i'm not saying we should just give up, but no one but the artists and those who make their living working with and for them really understands this.  as wrong as we know it is, most i talk with about this think that the general public believes that music should be free.  we know it can't be and they have no idea the future cost of this belief in "free".  




In Canada about 10 years ago everyone was pirating satellite TV. The Canadian government came down hard and even put millions in an advertising campaign to educate the public. The satellite companies also made it a PITA by killing the cards every three months or so as well. In the end, most people bought subscriptions and the pirates are the minority.

The point:

It is easy to change the mindset of the people if the will is there. Don't think it is impossible, the opposite is true. The clear problem is the lack of government leadership on this issue.

Fair compensation? It is whatever the market dictates it should be in an economy where a black market is not allowed to thrive. Just look back over the decades before internet piracy if you want to  come up with a number.


I agree.  Most people are lazy and will take the path of least resistance.  Right now it is even easier to steal music than it is to pay for it, and there are no immediately-noticeable downsides.  Change either or both of those and most people will change their behavior.
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mgod

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Re: Fair compensation for artistic endevours
« Reply #20 on: January 22, 2011, 07:10:04 PM »

I'm also pretty disturbed that its far easier to steal a full resolution file than buy one. I don't know of any place to buy non-compressed files except the Chesky's site.
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KB_S1

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Re: Fair compensation for artistic endevours
« Reply #21 on: January 22, 2011, 08:03:09 PM »

mgod wrote on Sun, 23 January 2011 00:10

I'm also pretty disturbed that its far easier to steal a full resolution file than buy one. I don't know of any place to buy non-compressed files except the Chesky's site.


Linn Records based in Glasgow have a pretty comprehensive download policy.
You can get files as they were mastered, in many cases that means 24/96.
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Bill Mueller

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Re: Fair compensation for artistic endevours
« Reply #22 on: January 22, 2011, 08:45:19 PM »

mgod wrote on Sat, 22 January 2011 19:10

I'm also pretty disturbed that its far easier to steal a full resolution file than buy one. I don't know of any place to buy non-compressed files except the Chesky's site.

Dan,

So there is the key. What would be the most effective, easiest,  most legal, most distributed method of making stolen files more difficult to find than legal ones?

It seems to me that the defeat of net neutrality could quickly bring about a two tiered internet, where "blessed" files could travel quickly and "common" files could travel slower. The upper tier providers would pay for their service and quickly weed out illegal traffic, speeding up the upper tier even faster. The public would then have a clear choice to get their pay per files more quickly, or their stolen files more slowly, or not at all.

I know that people are going to scream about this, but net neutrality is not as much about the freedom to speak as it is about the freedom to loot.

Bill
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"Don't take it personally. But this shit is a science." J.J.Blair

“The Internet is only a means of communication,” he wrote. “It is not an amorphous extraterrestrial body with an entitlement to norms that run counter to the fundamental principles of human rights. There is nothing in the criminal or civil law which legalizes that which is otherwise illegal simply because the transaction takes place over the Internet.” Irish judge, Peter Charleton

JohnLisiecki

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Re: Fair compensation for artistic endevours
« Reply #23 on: January 22, 2011, 10:32:06 PM »

Bill Mueller wrote on Sun, 23 January 2011 01:45

mgod wrote on Sat, 22 January 2011 19:10

I'm also pretty disturbed that its far easier to steal a full resolution file than buy one. I don't know of any place to buy non-compressed files except the Chesky's site.

Dan,

So there is the key. What would be the most effective, easiest,  most legal, most distributed method of making stolen files more difficult to find than legal ones?

It seems to me that the defeat of net neutrality could quickly bring about a two tiered internet, where "blessed" files could travel quickly and "common" files could travel slower. The upper tier providers would pay for their service and quickly weed out illegal traffic, speeding up the upper tier even faster. The public would then have a clear choice to get their pay per files more quickly, or their stolen files more slowly, or not at all.

I know that people are going to scream about this, but net neutrality is not as much about the freedom to speak as it is about the freedom to loot.

Bill


Perhaps, but can anyone point me to an example of any of the labels selling music downloads directly?  I was just on the Sony site, and you can buy CD's or mp3 downloads, but nothing uncompressed.  I know that stuff would be easy to pirate at this point, so I can see many of the labels declaring it "not worth the effort", but for records I really like, I'd be willing to buy the high-rez files in addition to the standard CD or vinyl.

I remember a few years back, Daniel Lanois offered 24/96 files of an album of his, but I don't recall anyone else doing it.
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mattrussell

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Re: Fair compensation for artistic endevours
« Reply #24 on: January 23, 2011, 10:04:45 AM »

JohnLisiecki wrote on Sat, 22 January 2011 22:32

Bill Mueller wrote on Sun, 23 January 2011 01:45

mgod wrote on Sat, 22 January 2011 19:10

I'm also pretty disturbed that its far easier to steal a full resolution file than buy one. I don't know of any place to buy non-compressed files except the Chesky's site.

Dan,

So there is the key. What would be the most effective, easiest,  most legal, most distributed method of making stolen files more difficult to find than legal ones?

It seems to me that the defeat of net neutrality could quickly bring about a two tiered internet, where "blessed" files could travel quickly and "common" files could travel slower. The upper tier providers would pay for their service and quickly weed out illegal traffic, speeding up the upper tier even faster. The public would then have a clear choice to get their pay per files more quickly, or their stolen files more slowly, or not at all.

I know that people are going to scream about this, but net neutrality is not as much about the freedom to speak as it is about the freedom to loot.

Bill


Perhaps, but can anyone point me to an example of any of the labels selling music downloads directly?  I was just on the Sony site, and you can buy CD's or mp3 downloads, but nothing uncompressed.  I know that stuff would be easy to pirate at this point, so I can see many of the labels declaring it "not worth the effort", but for records I really like, I'd be willing to buy the high-rez files in addition to the standard CD or vinyl.

I remember a few years back, Daniel Lanois offered 24/96 files of an album of his, but I don't recall anyone else doing it.



john, while i wish i could buy them online easily, i don't think the general public cares about hi-res files at all and that's probably why no one else is doing it.  what's worse is the ability to encode an Mp3 is easy for my mom to do, let alone a kid.  ease of use is winning out over quality, by a long shot.  i think this will continue until we work on the real problem - people need to know that stealing music is going to kill music as we know it.  the question is, will anyone really care?

again, i'm not saying give up.  not at all.  my problem with debates like this is that i've yet to hear anyone describe to me a scenario that even gets close to solving the real problem.  i can't think of a way to make people pay for something that they can more easily obtain without paying for it.  

at this moment, i for one am not willing to give up on net neutrality.  does anyone really want to trade it for a way to curb stealing of music?  seriously, don't think for a second that the stealing will end as a result.  it may slow down a bit for a while, but the thief-makers will find a way. i'd guess that some kid somewhere will code something new to make it even easier as a result.

again, end the appetite to steal by making people sick by the thought of doing it and technology won't matter.
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matt russell
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MDM,

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Re: Fair compensation for artistic endevours
« Reply #25 on: January 23, 2011, 10:15:08 AM »

I think maybe people need to turn-off their TV sets and begin to participate in community life as a starting point.

ultimately everyone should get much more involved in politics and government, because the whole problem of copyright infringement is just one small facet of a bigger issue. At the root of the problem is the political movement towards a centralized style of government and industry.  If the government and industry become consolidated as one body it will be too late to do anything about copyright because they will effectively do everything possible to destroy the remaining private sector (small business and anything else which does not belong to them)

playing live is the only solution I see as well.  

but maybe copyright will be back in the near future, who knows.
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Silvertone

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Re: Fair compensation for artistic endevours
« Reply #26 on: January 23, 2011, 10:45:55 AM »

Tidewater wrote on Sat, 22 January 2011 10:29

That is a culture we aren't going to stop by begging.



Your right it can only be stopped by good parenting.

Sorry but parents today fall down on the job in an effort to be "friends" with their kids.... I know most of my friends do.  They actually will justify their kids stealing content all the time... "everybody does it".

Go back to teaching right from wrong, morals and values...  the picture is actually much greater than our little industry... and much more dire if something is not done now.

As for me, I went back to developing talent for my own personal pleasure.  If there's going to be no money in it, I at least want JOY out of it.

How I will pay my bills in the future IS the scary proposition! These days I'm selling off equipment to help offset things... we all know how long that lasts... scary times!

I know the topic is "fair compensation" but I know quite a few people that would appreciate "any" compensation.

One last thing, the clients I deal with that are still making very good money in the industry are the ones who license their music to the film industry.  I may go back to writing and see if I can't get some music placed myself.  With so many station and sites coming online all the time I still see this as one growth area.
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kats

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Re: Fair compensation for artistic endevours
« Reply #27 on: January 23, 2011, 01:01:27 PM »

mattrussell wrote on Sun, 23 January 2011 09:04


at this moment, i for one am not willing to give up on net neutrality.  does anyone really want to trade it for a way to curb stealing of music?



It is not just about music. Music just happened to be one of the first victims. And my answer is yes, I'm willing to give up on net neutrality (a BS term to begin with) to save the foundations of our way of life. Capitalism, the right to privacy, and democracy.

The will of the people is under attack.
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Tony K.
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Entertainment is a bore, communication is where it's at! - Brian Jones 1967

Edward Vinatea

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Re: Fair compensation for artistic endevours
« Reply #28 on: January 23, 2011, 01:02:09 PM »

Maybe it should be blamed on the inequity of income.

I know some of you will get annoyed with what I am going to say, but, have you ever thought that maybe making money from records --like these last 30 years-- has been highly overpaid/earned for way too long? A real great artist like Mozart in the 18th century made good money, but he still died in financial ruin. If records had been invented in those days or if sheet music was marketed and sold the way it is today, he would have been set for life. This example should reinforce the notion that all artist should make money from their intellectual properties, correct?

Having said that, some of today's performers seem to make a grossly, high amount of money already, some IMHO, without much virtue, some do it by selling records alone {regardless the latest sale figures on Billboard these days} and maybe this has been going on for way too long.

Those who can fill auditoriums, certainly deserve to make every dollar is coming to them, but this record sales loss of income by piracy whining --by all sides-- is not going to change what appears to be the new millennium's correction in income for all musicians, producers, engineers, record label owners, etc, etc, in the industrial world.

Seeing all these record companies lose their monopolies on distribution maybe too hard to take for many people, but who is to say, maybe they did have it coming?

I know this is a very complex subject and it would be silly of me to make it look simple, but I think it all boils down to two things: money and greed.

Why should a recording artist be paid in a year or even much less, what sometimes it takes a blue collar worker to earn in his/her whole lifetime? These {and their children} are some of the people doing the illegal downloading in the first place. Music should be a gift to the world not to one's pocket, the sooner we can depart from the need to control it, the better we will enjoy it. Be freed from greed.

Why should a singer or an actor make so much money, that some of them even feel so awkward about it and need to give some of that away, or dedicate their time to worthy causes in Africa, Haiti, etc? Needless to say there are thousands that don't give a damn and even flaunt their fortunes. Good for them, maybe they were a low form of life in another lifetime. But, it's completely insane to reward people in the arts to such financial extremes that it only feeds the machinery of artistic inequality and the desire by some people to reach it, but motivated by all the wrong reasons. In the end, most of the people who have nothing to do with the creative process {like agents, managers, executives, etc} are the ones who rip the most benefits. Being a successful artist is not even as hazardous as being a stuntman, which gets paid much less, and certainly not in a physical danger like a football player, who gets paid just as much for risking his neck.

Some of the artists I have done work for are now in their late 60's and they are still performing because record sales are not a sufficient income. They live comfortable, but they are not 'rich'. And some that I also know, who have just as much of an incredible talent and great material, have almost lost their homes and their spouses for pursuing their dream. Why do people with real talent many times -if not usually all the time- fail, while some recording artists that do not deserve it have a millionaire contract?  What's the quality of today's pop music world? And what motivates these executives to offer these contracts in the first place? Greed.

I think there is something fundamentally wrong with this industry and starts at its foundation. This is one big tree that is rotten at its root and it's going to come down hard by its own weight.

I am not a communist, but I just think that some artists are already way too overpaid and overexposed and that has given the rest the wrong idea.

Thus, in a future 'new world order'-I think- if I was being paid as a performer only $100K a year, but remain a relevant artist the rest of my life, with a decent amount of people who do appreciate my work, I would be very happy person and I would still have time to pursue other interests, if I wanted to.

As for engineers, you should have no doubts that people are going to need your expertise. No one can ever take that away from you and you will always have something to do because regardless of how the chips fall and get re-arranged, one thing will be constant: the need to record and broadcast music.

Just another angle of looking at things, of course, sorry for a long rant.

Regards,

Edward

kats

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Re: Fair compensation for artistic endevours
« Reply #29 on: January 23, 2011, 01:13:44 PM »

Edward, where do you draw the line?

Are we allowed to steal from any group of people that we think make too much money?

Who gets to decide?

It's called government and taxation. IF you feel the disparity between rich and poor is too great then lobby for higher taxes on the rich. Sanctioning theft is no way to re-distribute money. That's called chaos.
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Tony K.
http://empirerecording.ca

Entertainment is a bore, communication is where it's at! - Brian Jones 1967
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