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Author Topic: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick  (Read 36644 times)

Tidewater

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Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
« Reply #135 on: January 25, 2011, 09:04:25 pm »

YZ wrote on Tue, 25 January 2011 18:47

Tidewater wrote on Tue, 25 January 2011 20:29

Yeah, both ends, right?

Apple wants me to pay 30 cents more per track for 50 year old music than they asked just a few months ago.


Well it's a free market, why are you complaining?



You hear complaints. I am making statements.

I choose not to buy. That's the free market working. (another statement)

I am on strike. (another statement)
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mgod

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Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
« Reply #136 on: January 26, 2011, 01:37:59 am »

Tidewater wrote on Tue, 25 January 2011 17:14

And you want me to participate in a system I don't agree with as well.

You'd write that same thing after my death.

Very well. Do what you will.

Only if you ever allow yourself to take money from the government (i.e you and me) in any form whatsoever.
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crazydoc

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Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
« Reply #137 on: January 26, 2011, 02:10:01 am »

ScotcH wrote on Tue, 25 January 2011 21:47

It's unfortunate, but it seems that discussing this topic with Americans is the same as trying to discuss gun rights and the constitution.  The fundamental mentalities are so deeply ingrained, that any change monumental enough to be effective, is simple inconceivable.

I have no idea what obamacare is about, but from what I've heard, it still deals with insurace, as a result is no change at all.  That is the #1 flaw right there, and I'd venture that it's the root of all that is wrong with US health care.  Insurance should be for additional coverage only, totally optional, and not for the basics of health care, and this change simply will never happen in the US.  The insurance corps will NOT allow it to happen.  Period.

Yes, I'm from Canada, and I shake my head often at these discussions.

This pretty much nails it. We Americans are unable to see that we live in a plutocracy where our legislators are shills for a corporate class, bought by campaign funding and payoffs from lobbyists. There is no other reason that a single payer plan was not even discussed, and the public option was never seriously considered.

Representative democracy in the US is a myth - our congress has been bought and paid for.
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YZ

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Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
« Reply #138 on: January 26, 2011, 02:24:57 am »

Wireline wrote on Tue, 25 January 2011 23:38

Regardless of known consequences, people are gonna do what they want to do, and expect "the system" to fix them later.


1- What 'system'?

2- I doubt that drunkards/junkies/heavy smokers are expecting to be 'taken care of'.

3- If the guy paid a private health insurance plan, then he has every right to expect treatment as contracted; if the insurance company accepted him as a client and he proves to be non-profitable, tough luck for them...  it is a business and it has risks.
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YZ

Wireline

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Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
« Reply #139 on: January 26, 2011, 08:00:22 am »

YZ wrote on Wed, 26 January 2011 01:24

Wireline wrote on Tue, 25 January 2011 23:38

Regardless of known consequences, people are gonna do what they want to do, and expect "the system" to fix them later.


1- What 'system'?

2- I doubt that drunkards/junkies/heavy smokers are expecting to be 'taken care of'.

3- If the guy paid a private health insurance plan, then he has every right to expect treatment as contracted; if the insurance company accepted him as a client and he proves to be non-profitable, tough luck for them...  it is a business and it has risks.



You really don't know how it works here, do you?  For example, in Texas

1.  Every community of any size has implemented into it's charter things like indigent care, emergency services for homeless/illegals, etc.  These are state funded, often supplemented with matching federal funds, and are often better levels of care than those with basic insurance.

2.  You can doubt all you like - there are waiting lists of to get into rehab hospitals all across the nation, usually at tax payer or religious/non profit group expense if the inbound patient doesn't have funding, or doesn't qualify for medicare

3.  As it currently stands, because of politic, illegals, indigents, etc often get a higher level care than those with purchased insurance.  No one except the special interests like this except the special interests - theirs in truly a free ride.

Really, man...you might research what the facts of each state are before making blanket assumptions.  Now you can continue to nit pick the minutia of what - if scenarios, or try and understand the our health care is not simply a matter of the national government waving its magic wand and providing for everyone overnight.  We have 50 individual states that would like to (and have the Constitution authority) to have a say so in the matter as well - local governments also have a right to say how their mandated contributions are being spent.

Then there is the Constitutional clause of federal mandate nullification - a whole different can of worms.
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Ken Morgan
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Jon Hodgson

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Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
« Reply #140 on: January 26, 2011, 08:17:03 am »

Wireline wrote on Wed, 26 January 2011 13:00

YZ wrote on Wed, 26 January 2011 01:24

Wireline wrote on Tue, 25 January 2011 23:38

Regardless of known consequences, people are gonna do what they want to do, and expect "the system" to fix them later.


1- What 'system'?

2- I doubt that drunkards/junkies/heavy smokers are expecting to be 'taken care of'.

3- If the guy paid a private health insurance plan, then he has every right to expect treatment as contracted; if the insurance company accepted him as a client and he proves to be non-profitable, tough luck for them...  it is a business and it has risks.



You really don't know how it works here, do you?  For example, in Texas

1.  Every community of any size has implemented into it's charter things like indigent care, emergency services for homeless/illegals, etc.  These are state funded, often supplemented with matching federal funds, and are often better levels of care than those with basic insurance.

2.  You can doubt all you like - there are waiting lists of to get into rehab hospitals all across the nation, usually at tax payer or religious/non profit group expense if the inbound patient doesn't have funding, or doesn't qualify for medicare

3.  As it currently stands, because of politic, illegals, indigents, etc often get a higher level care than those with purchased insurance.  No one except the special interests like this except the special interests - theirs in truly a free ride.

Really, man...you might research what the facts of each state are before making blanket assumptions.  Now you can continue to nit pick the minutia of what - if scenarios, or try and understand the our health care is not simply a matter of the national government waving its magic wand and providing for everyone overnight.  We have 50 individual states that would like to (and have the Constitution authority) to have a say so in the matter as well - local governments also have a right to say how their mandated contributions are being spent.

Then there is the Constitutional clause of federal mandate nullification - a whole different can of worms.


You seem to be more concerned with what other people are getting than with what you're not.

Even if you don't give a damn about anyone else, homeless people getting medical care isn't your big problem (we manage to cover them here in Europe, and we're still paying less than you are), your big problem is that your system isn't giving YOU the care you pay for.

Of course it's wrong that people who contribute nothing get better care than those on basic insurance... but not because it's wrong that they get care, because it's wrong that the basic insurance doesn't provide the same cover.

In fact as far as I'm concerned the only difference how much you pay should make should be in extras, not fundamentals. You need a heart operation? You're covered, whatever happens, by a fully capable surgeon in a clean hospital within a reasonable timeframe, but if you want doctor X next month and a private room with your own nurse, well that costs extra and unless you bought the triple platinum plus cover, you'll have to pay for it out of your own pocket.

As for the adminstrative and political issues with local government, state government and federal all fighting their patch, well that's all surmountable if you (as a nation) want it to be... just imagine where you'd be as a country if the Founding Fathers had had the attitude that you couldn't change the status quo. People talk about the constitution like it's some holy scripture carved in stone tablets... you've had 27 amendments to it over time as people changed or expanded their minds about what was fundamentally important.
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Wireline

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Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
« Reply #141 on: January 26, 2011, 08:32:41 am »

You are either not readying what I am saying, or I am not saying it clearly.

I believe a change in the status quo is a must.  I just don't think the European system is the answer to our situation, as we have certain circumstances that WILL not change, regardless of Europe's opinion.  Texas is not New York, and no amount of wishing will ever change that.  State's rights is very precious to the majority of us, and is not likely to go away without some violent changes (that was done once already)

You can call us stubborn, stupid, whatever - that's your right and opinion.  One of the reasons I am as resistant to the European model is the same I am resistant to the model enacted by the current President - you are essentially jamming it down my throat, insisting I am a dumbass if I don't go along with your way of thinking.

Not a good way to make friends and influence people.

Be critical all you want - matters not; but until the citizenry of the US decide what is best for us, have a clear understand of what it is and what it does in clear and open terms (which no one does), and the majority of our elected spokespersons agree to it, discussion is moot.  Which has been my (and most conservatives regardless of party) position all along - instead of "you have to pass it to find out what's in it," lets look at it with our sleeves rolled up and see exactly what it is, what it isn't, and go from there.

It is pretty hard to see this point of view when on the attack all time, wouldn't you agree?
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Ken Morgan
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YZ

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Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
« Reply #142 on: January 26, 2011, 08:35:59 am »

No, I don't know how it works where you live.

And I never said I did; I go based on what your fellow countrymen say here and I truly appreciate the insights you're offering.

And if a completely destitute person has access to better healthcare than a person who's barely making enough - or even better off than that, then there IS something wrong...  a society shouldn't wait until a citizen reaches the gutter to help him.

You said that the very poor have, in Texas, better healthcare than someone who can only afford the most basic health insurance; then the interests of the basic health _insurers_ seem to be well taken care of...  the guy is basically forced into the basic _private_ plan, one that will drain his money but won't offer much coverage, thus reducing his net income, restricting his liberties - he can only go where his plan allows - and keeps the citizen from being able to save enough, since he is paying the premium, to create a cushion for the eventuality of a serious health need.

So the guy in the example is:

-Paying from his state and federal taxes for the healthcare of others;
-Paying privately for a poor private health insurance plan;
-Not eligible for neither public nor privately-funded free healthcare because he has the basic private health insurance plan;
- Not able to save for hard times because he has to pay his insurance.

And as demonstrated by others in the 3 threads about healthcare here, the government of the USA is spending more per capita on healthcare than other countries do with their more comprehensive public systems PLUS the average citizen is spending about 16% of his income on deficient private health care.

This does not look good to me.
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YZ

Jon Hodgson

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Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
« Reply #143 on: January 26, 2011, 08:59:00 am »

Wireline wrote on Wed, 26 January 2011 13:32

You are either not readying what I am saying, or I am not saying it clearly.

I believe a change in the status quo is a must.  I just don't think the European system is the answer to our situation, as we have certain circumstances that WILL not change, regardless of Europe's opinion.  Texas is not New York, and no amount of wishing will ever change that.  State's rights is very precious to the majority of us, and is not likely to go away without some violent changes (that was done once already)

You can call us stubborn, stupid, whatever - that's your right and opinion.  One of the reasons I am as resistant to the European model is the same I am resistant to the model enacted by the current President - you are essentially jamming it down my throat, insisting I am a dumbass if I don't go along with your way of thinking.

Not a good way to make friends and influence people.

Be critical all you want - matters not; but until the citizenry of the US decide what is best for us, have a clear understand of what it is and what it does in clear and open terms (which no one does), and the majority of our elected spokespersons agree to it, discussion is moot.  Which has been my (and most conservatives regardless of party) position all along - instead of "you have to pass it to find out what's in it," lets look at it with our sleeves rolled up and see exactly what it is, what it isn't, and go from there.

It is pretty hard to see this point of view when on the attack all time, wouldn't you agree?


There is no "European System", different countries use different systems.

What there is, is a "Most of the rest of the world Attitude", which is that universal healthcare is a fundamental responsibility of civilized society.

So the various systems are built on that basis.

None of them is perfect, but ironically all of them are cheaper than yours.

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Wireline

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Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
« Reply #144 on: January 26, 2011, 09:05:04 am »

It isn't good...and that's why we need some serious attention to the system.

But, we are working on it. Once we get it figured out, its gonna be good, but its gonna require some give from everyone.

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Ken Morgan
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YZ

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Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
« Reply #145 on: January 26, 2011, 09:29:25 am »

three thumbs up to that!  - yes, my last hand surgery didn't go as planned  Smile
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YZ

jonathan jetter

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Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
« Reply #146 on: January 26, 2011, 10:30:24 am »

Wireline wrote on Wed, 26 January 2011 09:05

It isn't good...and that's why we need some serious attention to the system.

But, we are working on it. Once we get it figured out, its gonna be good, but its gonna require some give from everyone.




i really don't think it's going to be good.  the people who run the insurance companies, and the people who run the finance companies, and the defense contracting companies, and the oil companies, and a few other industries, all have a vested interest in it never being good.

http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/26614998/detail.html

(i don't know how to stick a title in the URL, but the article is about an insurance company dropping a vietnam vet for being 2 cents short on his payment)
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YZ

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Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
« Reply #147 on: January 26, 2011, 10:42:26 am »

Note about private health insurance here:

The insurance company has to send you a '35-day late notice' if you're late on a payment, and service is interrupted if you get more than 60 days late.

BUT service re-starts the moment you get up to date on your payments.

It's the law here.
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YZ

mgod

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Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
« Reply #148 on: January 26, 2011, 11:43:48 am »

Wireline wrote on Wed, 26 January 2011 05:32

One of the reasons I am as resistant to the European model is the same I am resistant to the model enacted by the current President - you are essentially jamming it down my throat, insisting I am a dumbass if I don't go along with your way of thinking.

Ken, is this not true of ALL federal programs?

For instance, I deeply object to our military system and its devastating effect on our finances, our education system and our populace. I'm 100% with Ike on this.

Can I opt out?
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mgod

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Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
« Reply #149 on: January 26, 2011, 11:46:00 am »

Jon Hodgson wrote on Wed, 26 January 2011 05:59

There is no "European System", different countries use different systems.

What there is, is a "Most of the rest of the world Attitude", which is that universal healthcare is a fundamental responsibility of civilized society.

So the various systems are built on that basis.

None of them is perfect, but ironically all of them are cheaper than yours.

Not so ironic. Because of the way our country "works", pretty much everything except gasoline and high-fructose corn syrup is more expensive here.
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