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Author Topic: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick  (Read 36306 times)

YZ

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Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
« Reply #120 on: January 25, 2011, 10:52:41 am »

Funding? Taxes. More specifically, a 'healthcare tax'.

And as with other individual taxes, the greater the net income of the taxed, the greater the tax.

Nothing new with that.

Employers would also pay this healthcare tax; healthier workers are more productive.
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YZ

Barry Hufker

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Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
« Reply #121 on: January 25, 2011, 12:13:13 pm »

Here is a graph based on data from the World Health Organization (2006-2007).  As Jon says, we don't appear to be getting the value for money we're spending.

And as for accepting people with "pre-existing conditions".  We all have them whether they have been diagnosed or not.  Insurance companies are in it for the money.  If there weren't money in this business (which by the way is another legalized form of gambling) they wouldn't do it.  Insurance companies just want the odds to remain fixed so "the house always wins".  Unfortunately, this is gambling with people's lives.  And profit should not be put ahead of people.


index.php/fa/16206/0/

Barry
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mgod

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Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
« Reply #122 on: January 25, 2011, 01:32:27 pm »

Jon Hodgson wrote on Tue, 25 January 2011 05:26

I think people give the ultra rich too much (dis)credit. It seems to me to be a deligation of responsibility more than anything, you just put the blame for all your ills on a few "super rich" people who aren't really human, because somehow they're all genetically programmed to want to extract the last cent out of everyone (and often it seems in ways that most economists would view as actually damaging to them, the logic of conspiracy is quite convoluted, but that's another discussion).

Your health system has thousands of people (if not millions) involved in it at one level or another who benefit from you being screwed, and you want to put all the blame on the guys at the very top of the income ladder?

One thing I always bear in mind when it comes to the subject of greed and the very rich was an interesting statement by Stelios, the founder of Easy Jet, and worth several hundred million. He said that once you passed a hundred million, unless you took to accumulating things like houses and yaghts, extra money made no real difference to your lifestyle.

You can already afford to do what you want, when you want, the best hotels, the best restaurants, the best of everything.

So, if you're that rich, getting extra money isn't really the aim, for some it's how they "keep score" in the business game, because they still take pleasure from the game, others will take up new ganes... Richard Branson likes trying to get records, Bill Gates set up a foundation.

Everyone is different, and everyone is the same, we're all people, with our own weaknesses and strengths. I've known a number of wealthy people, and they were different. For example two spring to mind, one seemed to achieve his success by being the ultimate shark, he could smell blood in the water from an ocean away, can't say I liked him much (but conversely having met his children I would say that not only was he a very good father, but they didn't share his predatory nature as far as I could see)... the other seemed to achieve his success by finding good people and rewarding them handsomely for what they did for him, so they stuck with him and he continued to profit (as did they).

So sure, there are people at the top who are a big part of the problem, but so are the people clinging to not wanting to pay for other people, or the people who will argue against it just because it's proposed by another party, or the insurance salesmen who'll sell you insurance that doesn't cover you properly because they make a better commission on that, or the doctors who prescribe medicins they get some sort of kickback from, etc etc.

It doesn't matter HOW rich or powerful you are, I challenge you to change British perception on whether healthcare should be available to all regardless of ability to pay. I think THAT is the important difference. Most of the world's healthcare systems are based on an ethos of shared care and shared responsibility. Yours is based on one of every man for himself, and then has a social part grafted on top of it because as a society you'd feel guilty if your selfishness meant people actually did get left to die on the street if they couldn't afford the ambulance fare.

Jon - this is one of the finest, clearest things I've ever read in this forum. Pleasure to know you.

DS
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ScotcH

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Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
« Reply #123 on: January 25, 2011, 04:47:46 pm »

It's unfortunate, but it seems that discussing this topic with Americans is the same as trying to discuss gun rights and the constitution.  The fundamental mentalities are so deeply ingrained, that any change monumental enough to be effective, is simple inconceivable.

I have no idea what obamacare is about, but from what I've heard, it still deals with insurace, as a result is no change at all.  That is the #1 flaw right there, and I'd venture that it's the root of all that is wrong with US health care.  Insurance should be for additional coverage only, totally optional, and not for the basics of health care, and this change simply will never happen in the US.  The insurance corps will NOT allow it to happen.  Period.

Yes, I'm from Canada, and I shake my head often at these discussions.
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DarinK

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Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
« Reply #124 on: January 25, 2011, 04:53:26 pm »

Wireline wrote on Tue, 25 January 2011 07:27



And, most American citizens are pretty well against nationalized anything.  If it works in other nations, cool...I just don't think a nationally mandated anything will work here.





I disagree.  The vast majority of Americans are fine w/ Social Security and with Medicare.  Part of that may be that somehow they don't considered those nationalized. ("Keep your government hands off my Medicare!" signs come to mind.)
Polls have shown that over 60% of Americans support single-payer or the "public option" in health care.  When it is phrased as "government health care" the numbers go down, when it is phrased as "Medicare for all" the numbers go up.  The opposition to these systems pay a whole lot of money to determine the best phrasing to use to oppose any changes that could hurt their profits.  If there's one thing that successful businessmen know, it's marketing, which gives them a huge edge in framing the debate.
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Tidewater

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Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
« Reply #125 on: January 25, 2011, 04:58:02 pm »

We keep getting eaten in tiny little bites.

num-num
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mgod

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Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
« Reply #126 on: January 25, 2011, 05:15:24 pm »

Yes we do - by industries that control the legislative process.
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Tidewater

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Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
« Reply #127 on: January 25, 2011, 05:29:09 pm »

Yeah, both ends, right?

Apple wants me to pay 30 cents more per track for 50 year old music than they asked just a few months ago.
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Bubba#$%Kron

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Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
« Reply #128 on: January 25, 2011, 05:58:16 pm »

The sad truth is there has been more REAL debate here than congress did!!  Good thread though!!!!!
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"When we make music we don't do it in order to reach a certain point, such as the end of the composition. If that were the purpose of music then obviously the fastest players would be the best. Also, when we are dancing we are not aiming to arrive at a particular place on the floor as in a journey. When we dance, the journey itself is the point, as when we play music the playing itself is the point."  -Alan Watts

YZ

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Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
« Reply #129 on: January 25, 2011, 06:47:56 pm »

Tidewater wrote on Tue, 25 January 2011 20:29

Yeah, both ends, right?

Apple wants me to pay 30 cents more per track for 50 year old music than they asked just a few months ago.


Well it's a free market, why are you complaining?
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regards,

YZ

Barry Hufker

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Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
« Reply #130 on: January 25, 2011, 06:55:49 pm »

I also think Jon has spoken eloquently.

And it is true the U.S. has a huge case of "N.I.H" -- not National Institute of Health but rather "Not Invented Here".  There is an arrogance in this country and an entitlement I can't fathom (and yes I was born here and have lived my whole life here).

It's an odd blend of the "Pioneer Spirit" (I can do for myself and I want my nearest neighbor 15 miles away) and arrogance (what didn't we invent and what world war didn't we win and our economy is so huge you have to pay attention to us).  And "your rights are fine with me unless I decide they're not", because "that's my right".

The U.S. is not good with sharing -- yes we'll help you out with your natural disaster.  We like helping the underdog, but don't ask out of a sense of equality with us only out of a sense of need so we can feel good about ourselves helping you.

And we don't take criticism well -- "America: Love it or Leave it" is the common reply.

We want to be the world's policeman and big brother, but not necessarily your friend.  

So when it comes to learning the lessons others have to teach us we don't learn them very well at all because we dismiss the teacher as well as the circumstance.

We are not our own best friend.

Barry

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YZ

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Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
« Reply #131 on: January 25, 2011, 07:26:02 pm »

Wireline wrote on Tue, 25 January 2011 13:27

Fair enough...but keep in mind we are a federated republic, not a democracy, contrary to popular belief.

And _that_ is what's going to keep the USA from having a nation-wide government sponsored public healthcare system!

Quote:

Prevention only goes so far, and cannot control genetics.

Oh yes, if prevention is not good for _everything_ then say NO to prevention...  really?

Quote:

And, most American citizens are pretty well against nationalized anything.  If it works in other nations, cool...I just don't think a nationally mandated anything will work here.


The 3 threads here show that a good number of US citizens are FOR nationalized healthcare...
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YZ

Barry Hufker

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Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
« Reply #132 on: January 25, 2011, 07:47:48 pm »

Ayn Rand relied on Social Security and Possibly Medicare.

   Critics of Social Security and Medicare frequently invoke the words and ideals of author and philosopher Ayn Rand, one of the fiercest critics of federal insurance programs. But a little-known fact is that Ayn Rand herself collected Social Security. She may also have received Medicare benefits.

   An interview recently surfaced that was conducted in 1998 by the Ayn Rand Institute with a social worker who says she helped Rand and her husband, Frank O’Connor, sign up for Social Security and Medicare in 1974.

   Federal records obtained through a Freedom of Information act request confirm the Social Security benefits. A similar FOI request was unable to either prove or disprove the Medicare claim.

   Between December 1974 and her death in March 1982, Rand collected a total of $11,002 in monthly Social Security payments. O’Connor received $2,943 between December 1974 and his death in November 1979.[..]

   The couple registered for benefits shortly after Rand, a two-pack-a-day smoker, had surgery for lung cancer in the summer of 1974. Medicare had been enacted nine years earlier in the Social Security Act of 1965 to provide health insurance to those age 65 and older. [..]

   Rand herself called altruism a “basic evil” and referred to those who perpetuate the system of taxation and redistribution as “looters” and “moochers.” She wrote in her book “The Virtue of Selfishness” that accepting any government controls is “delivering oneself into gradual enslavement.” In a 1972 edition of her newsletter, she said:

       Morally and economically, the welfare state creates an ever accelerating downward pull. Morally, the chance to satisfy demands by force spreads the demands wider and wider, with less and less pretense at justification. Economically, the forced demands of one group create hardships for all others, thus producing an inextricable mixture of actual victims and plain parasites. Since need, not achievement, is held as the criterion of rewards, the government necessarily keeps sacrificing the more productive groups to the less productive, gradually chaining the top level of the economy, then the next level, then the next.[..]

   Rand often spoke of moral absolutism, saying “There can be no compromise on basic principles,” but the realities of aging and illness seem to have softened her stance. Social Security, and perhaps Medicare, allowed Rand and her husband to maintain their quality of life, remain in their apartment and live out their final years with dignity.


Copied from http://www.crooksandliars.com
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Tidewater

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Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
« Reply #133 on: January 25, 2011, 08:14:35 pm »

And you want me to participate in a system I don't agree with as well.

You'd write that same thing after my death.

Very well. Do what you will.
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Wireline

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Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
« Reply #134 on: January 25, 2011, 08:38:00 pm »

YZ, I can appreciate your enthusiasm...

but until the fundamental structure of the US system of government, as outlined by the framers of our Constitution is changed, that is the way it is.  Any criticism, however well intended, is a wasted endeavor, unless you can convince enough of the nation's power brokers to amend the Constitution.  Until then, we are a federated republic - end of line.

Sorry to break up a good plan, but that is the way it is.

And one other thing - it's probably a good idea to take quotes in context.  Of course prevention is a highly desirable approach, as I stated earlier.  In that same section, I stated that anyone who has attended 1st grade n any school in the US has been taught to eat good foods instead of junk foods, to exercise instead of setting inside playing video games, and so on.  That's why smoking is almost a sin, why no liquor ads are allowed on TV, etc.

See how well that's working?  Regardless of known consequences, people are gonna do what they want to do, and expect "the system" to fix them later.
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