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Author Topic: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick  (Read 44767 times)

Tidewater

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Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
« Reply #60 on: January 22, 2011, 02:54:07 pm »

Barry Hufker wrote on Sat, 22 January 2011 13:58

I love your optimism.  I am 57.  I've seen enough of politics to know who has your interest at heart and who doesn't.  If you don't think racism is part of the Right-Wing agenda then look at Arizona as evidence.

Notice how there are no conservative voices in the thread anymore.  They complain they have been "shutdown" here.  Once confronted with facts they have no rebuttal...  



You just called me a racist because the healthcare system isn't your's.

Would you like to take another run at that before I respond in thes forum for the final time? My response will surely have me banned, and I just want to make sure I am not wasting my words.
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Barry Hufker

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Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
« Reply #61 on: January 22, 2011, 05:15:05 pm »

Miles,

I didn't call you a racist.  Show me where I said that.  I said people can be Republicans and not be racist but racism is indeed part of the Republican agenda.  That doesn't mean every Republican supports every aspect of that agenda.  I don't support every aspect of the liberal agenda.

I would be very unhappy if you and I had a personal falling-out.  I would be very unhappy if you were banned.

Barry
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zakco

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Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
« Reply #62 on: January 22, 2011, 05:23:53 pm »

Jay Kadis wrote on Sat, 22 January 2011 11:35

 I hope at some point we will grow as a nation and realize we are being taken advantage of by manipulative wealthy interests that are NOT the interests of the majority of citizens.  They're just putting words in our mouths.



Well said Jay

mgod

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Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
« Reply #63 on: January 22, 2011, 05:49:14 pm »

Jay Kadis wrote on Sat, 22 January 2011 11:35

This kind of politics is not new, but I hope at some point we will grow as a nation and realize we are being taken advantage of by manipulative wealthy interests that are NOT the interests of the majority of citizens.

I think its a little more complex than that. The Wall St. system of shareholding is partially to blame here, and that means more than just wealthy interests, although it always means self-interest. The vast majority of the profits go to Execs and the largest shareholders - but if any one of us is a shareholder in a mutual fund that invests in  health-prevention company, then we are also to blame.

This system allows us to profit when our fellow citizens do well, but it also allows us to profit when they don't.
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Rader Ranch

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Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
« Reply #64 on: January 22, 2011, 06:06:11 pm »

Jay Kadis wrote on Sat, 22 January 2011 14:35

 This kind of politics is not new, but I hope at some point we will grow as a nation and realize we are being taken advantage of by manipulative wealthy interests that are NOT the interests of the majority of citizens.


It's been like that from the very beginning. It's what Theodore Roosevelt and other "Trust Busters" struggled to begin to regulate back at the height of the early industrial age. Has as much to do with human nature as anything. There have been some improvements. A global consciousness due to all the instantaneous communication possible in all corners of the world now will eventually help, I hope. In my lifetime? I dunno...
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Jay Kadis

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Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
« Reply #65 on: January 22, 2011, 06:36:23 pm »

mgod wrote on Sat, 22 January 2011 14:49

Jay Kadis wrote on Sat, 22 January 2011 11:35

This kind of politics is not new, but I hope at some point we will grow as a nation and realize we are being taken advantage of by manipulative wealthy interests that are NOT the interests of the majority of citizens.

I think its a little more complex than that. The Wall St. system of shareholding is partially to blame here, and that means more than just wealthy interests, although it always means self-interest. The vast majority of the profits go to Execs and the largest shareholders - but if any one of us is a shareholder in a mutual fund that invests in  health-prevention company, then we are also to blame.

This system allows us to profit when our fellow citizens do well, but it also allows us to profit when they don't.
Wall Street is simply legalized gambling, but with less regulation.  It should be at least as heavily taxed as Indian casinos.  Individual investments are minimal compared to the institutional ones, some of which admittedly do benefit workers and small investors, but overall it's just enough crumbs to allow the argument that they are "helping the little guy" while they're actually helping themselves.

DarinK

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Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
« Reply #66 on: January 22, 2011, 06:36:41 pm »

Tidewater wrote on Sat, 22 January 2011 09:11

That is my statement prepared by DK. Verbatim.

When I say 'nobody owes me nothing', he sees the truth of my statement as I want children to suffer and die.

It's really as crappy an argument as one can make. It's not even a logical fallacy. It's just crap, but Barry calls it discussion, and in the future the thoughts that DK bestowed upon me might be considered crimes against humanity.

I can't tell where crazy idiots will take what's left of civilization, so I am just covering my ass... and personally losing friends to colon cancer. My experiences mean nothing. It's all about agendas, and if I can't help forward those, what good am I?



If you're going to quote me, quote the whole thing, please.  This is what I said, 'You may not mean it this way, but please understand that what you are saying is translated in some of our minds to be, "If you go bankrupt due to illness it's your own damn fault and I don't care about you or your family's suffering, I don't care about all the Americans without healthcare, I don't care about the children who suffer & die in the current system, because it's all somebody else's fault, and if that somebody else would just try harder then all the problems would disappear." Again, I doubt you mean it that way, but that's the way it can be interpreted.'
This was not in reference to the "nobody owes me nothing" statement, but to your description of an example of the current system working well for some friends of yours due to their efforts.

I think it's helpful for people with different opinions to really understand how the 'other side' hears what they are saying.  Somehow I'm sure my posts read differently depending on whether the reader agrees with me.

Years ago I heard of a dispute resolution technique where only one side could talk at a time, and the second side had to re-state the first side's points to the satisfaction of the first side before the second side could then respond to those points.  Basically one can't respond until the other side is certain you truly understand their point.  This method really appeals to me, maybe because being misunderstood really frustrates me & I hope to avoid doing that to others.  I apologize for failing in this case.
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Tidewater

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Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
« Reply #67 on: January 22, 2011, 07:30:54 pm »

I write poorly.

The best way I can deal with all this is alone, the way we come in, and the way we go out. I am not going to cost you a dime. Do not provide for me, please. It saddens me that I cannot provide for you, but I can't.

We have been taught to expect too much. It was bad teaching. I thought anything was possible at one time. It is not.

I am not against changing how people do healthcare.

I do know the government isn't very good at anything. It's made of people who were elected because they look nice in a suit. They eat Kobe beef, regulate light bulbs, food as fuel, and print money.

The ideas bounced around so far are hardly any more thought out by the end user than the *regulations* that setup the real estate debacle. In the future, resources are going to shrink. It's going to be even less possible.

Wall of text, and hardly a point touched. It's overwhelming. Massive, lossful.

I miss Dan. He was a drinker. They didn't see anything until he was stage IV. He blamed chemicals in a river he swam in as a child. I don't know if I buy that, but I miss him. His doctor (oncologist) contracted colon cancer about 80% of the way through that journey.

I carry a hand written message. That message reads: DO NOT RESUSCITATE

My life is a lesson in humility, for me at least. I don't mind if I become an irony in the end. You guys can joke about how I asked for what I got all you like, because I did ask for what I got.. prolly.

Do ironies get titles? What will the jokes be? I want to laugh too. I wonder.
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mgod

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Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
« Reply #68 on: January 22, 2011, 08:08:16 pm »

Tidewater wrote on Sat, 22 January 2011 16:30

I do know the government isn't very good at anything. It's made of people who were elected because they look nice in a suit. They eat Kobe beef, regulate light bulbs, food as fuel, and print money.

Then our government must suck uniquely. Plenty of other people and their governments have figured this out.
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Wireline

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Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
« Reply #69 on: January 22, 2011, 08:44:07 pm »

Uh...Barry,

I am very conservative.  What I am not is republican, racist, or tea anything.  You seem to have this misguided mindset that everyone who follows a set of conservative values (what we used to call Southern Democrat) is some sort of monster - seems you have bought into the rhetoric instead of thinking these things out for yourself, and that is fine with me.

In my 54 years on this earth, I've seen a lot of discourse, but never the group think focused hatred for one subset of voting citizens based on what another subset of voting citizens tries to dictate.  If Obamacare, or any other agenda is so critical that it causes you to abhor your neighbors, perhaps the issue really lies elsewhere?  I don't know, but I would look at myself before blindly accusing people of being racists just because they happen to be conservatives.  That, amigo, is racial profiling, and I thought you guys were dead set against that.

Long story short - McConnell does not speak for every American, nor does he speak for every conservative.  Chances are better than not he doesn't speak for the majority of Americans any more than Alan Grayson did when he ranked like an insane man who had not taken his anti-psychotic drugs in quite a while.  

So I'll ask you, since we are supposed to all be civil adults here engaged in conversation - we can all talk these things out without you calling me or any other conservative a racist.  Frankly, that's the kind of talk that has gotten us where we are today.  As for you tube examples, screw that - tell me YOU think, not what those guys think...It might be beneficial to the dialog

Thanks man
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DarinK

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Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
« Reply #70 on: January 22, 2011, 08:46:58 pm »

Tidewater wrote on Sat, 22 January 2011 16:30



The best way I can deal with all this is alone, the way we come in, and the way we go out. I am not going to cost you a dime. Do not provide for me, please. It saddens me that I cannot provide for you, but I can't.




I think this is a fundamental difference between us.  I feel that we are not dealing with anything alone. Human beings are social animals.  We are not "lone wolves".  We cannot survive without each other's help.  We all provide for each other.  We are all interconnected.  Unless you live alone in the wilderness receiving absolutely nothing from anyone ever, and you were born there alone & never received anything from anyone (including knowledge & emotional support), then you have received from others, and have been receiving from others your entire life.  And you have been giving to others, too, your whole life.  It's the only way humans beings have ever existed or could ever exist.
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DarinK

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Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
« Reply #71 on: January 22, 2011, 08:59:18 pm »

Just my opinion on the racist accusations:  I think that the conservative/Republican machine (the Republican party organization & leaders, the Tea Party organization & leaders, Fox news, Limbaugh, etc.)  are definitely using racism to further their own ends.  Whether or not they are actually racist doesn't change that, and whether or not specific conservative individuals are racist doesn't change that.  
I don't blame individual conservatives for the racism being thrown around.  I don't blame individual Muslims for the hatred of some radicals, either.
Somehow I think if Hillary had gotten elected we'd be seeing a whole lot of sexism from the conservative machine.  If an older man had been elected we'd see ageism.  And so on.  And the Democratic machine does the same sort of thing.
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Jay Kadis

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Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
« Reply #72 on: January 22, 2011, 09:19:17 pm »

Tidewater wrote on Sat, 22 January 2011 16:30

I write poorly.

The best way I can deal with all this is alone, the way we come in, and the way we go out. I am not going to cost you a dime. Do not provide for me, please. It saddens me that I cannot provide for you, but I can't.

We have been taught to expect too much. It was bad teaching. I thought anything was possible at one time. It is not.
Actually you write very well, like a songwriter.  

Even though you might not be able to provide for me, we should collectively be able to cover you if we have better fortune and you need it.  The "anything is possible" thing is correct on a technicality but shouldn't be taken too literally I'm afraid.  Music is a precarious way to make a living and always has been, save for the lucky few that made millions in the short time it was possible.  Much is still possible.  And we could do better.

Barry Hufker

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Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
« Reply #73 on: January 22, 2011, 09:24:36 pm »

Ken,

I can clearly make a distinction between conservative and racist.  I haven't bought into anything other than what I have observed with my own eyes.

Not all conservatives are racists.  I don't know how often I can say it.  But there is racism being practiced by the Republicans and the Tea Party.  It is blatant.  I see it plainly in Arizona.  I see it plainly as practiced by the Republicans in the national Senate and House. If you're not a member of those groups then you shouldn't be offended.

You say you're not that kind of person.  I've no reason to doubt you.

Many a "Southern Democrat" became a Republican after Democrats supported Civil Rights.

An example of Republican racism recently was that whole "don't build a mosque at ground zero" bullshit.  There already was a mosque at that site which had been there for years but once racism in the voters had been stirred up and the election won, the Republicans didn't need to talk about it anymore.

You see it in Rush Limbaugh.  The most recent was his ridiculing of the Chinese President when Rush "spoke Chinese" with a racism one wouldn't accept from an 8 year old.

Finally, the conservative effort to segregate North Carolina schools.  It's a Republican effort to destroy a successful integration between races and economic classes.          http://www.newsweek.com/blogs/the-gaggle/2011/01/21/weak-tea -party-connection-to-wake-county-n-c-school-board.html
Although not a Tea Party movement it is a conservative one.

It's there.  It's staring us all in the face.  The message is clear -- if you're not of white, European descent then you're not worthy of this country.  That's the whole "Obama wasn't born here, show us your birth certificate" thing.  None of that would be said if he were white.

DarinK is correct.  The Republicans will go for whatever they think achieves their end and racism is just today's tactic.

Alan Grayson is one of the few true-talking politicians.  I also cherish what Dennis Kucinich has to say.  But I'm smart enough to know they would never be able to compromise with conservatives so I know they could never be president.  But that also doesn't make them wrong.

But this thread is about health care.

Barry
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zakco

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Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
« Reply #74 on: January 22, 2011, 09:36:24 pm »

Tidewater wrote on Sat, 22 January 2011 16:30


The best way I can deal with all this is alone, the way we come in, and the way we go out. I am not going to cost you a dime. Do not provide for me, please. It saddens me that I cannot provide for you, but I can't.


It saddens me to even read these words of isolation and acceptance of suffering.

I can't imagine what society would be like if everyone shared your viewpoint (though you have every right to feel the way you do).

Where does this (seemingly uniquely american) perspective come from? This fear of a society where each individual shares in the security of his neighbors...

It seems to be the same people who have no problem throwing as much cash as they can at the military industrial machine, because *gasp* their government says they need to...


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