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Author Topic: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick  (Read 37204 times)

Tidewater

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Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
« Reply #90 on: January 23, 2011, 06:25:37 pm »

mgod wrote on Sun, 23 January 2011 15:31

Tidewater wrote on Sat, 22 January 2011 23:03

The moment that altruism becomes institutionalized will be the end of pure humanity.

Nonsense. Childish thinking. Sorry.

Unless you live in The Little Prince on a planet by yourself, you live in a town, in a state, in a country, in a world with others. Therefore, your security requires others to not need what you have. To protect yourself, the well-being of others is the essence of your own security. Call it "enlightened" self-interest if you like - in this case the enlightening realization that you breathe in what plants breathe out, unless your neighbor makes it un-breatheable.

Even the super-rich can't hire enough security to protect them from an ever-increasing number of poor and hungry forever. We are in this together. You are my burden, so start carrying.


Huh? hahaha NO EFFIN WAY! You are saying it's a damned ransom payment UP FRONT!

Hey, I have guns. I have been robbed, just 3 years ago.. in my own driveway. Took $3500 cash and prizes, at gun point. Next robbers go home in a tisket, a tasket, robbers in a casket..

I defend, I don't relenquish. New rules.

Now you screwed the whole thing up, I won't be paying ransom for ANYTHING. rofl... HOW CHILDISH.
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YZ

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Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
« Reply #91 on: January 23, 2011, 07:54:04 pm »

Tidewater wrote on Sun, 23 January 2011 21:25


Hey, I have guns. Next robbers go home in a tisket, a tasket, robbers in a casket..


Thou shall not kill.
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YZ

mgod

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Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
« Reply #92 on: January 23, 2011, 08:05:48 pm »

Tidewater wrote on Sun, 23 January 2011 15:25

Huh? hahaha NO EFFIN WAY! You are saying it's a damned ransom payment UP FRONT!

Hey, I have guns. I have been robbed, just 3 years ago.. in my own driveway. Took $3500 cash and prizes, at gun point. Next robbers go home in a tisket, a tasket, robbers in a casket..

I defend, I don't relenquish. New rules.

Now you screwed the whole thing up, I won't be paying ransom for ANYTHING. rofl... HOW CHILDISH.

Then you deserve to lose what you've accumulated to those who want it more.

There are two ways out - the one you prefer, with a bullet to the brain in your little cowboy game (the old rules), or through co-operation with your fellow human beings.
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DarinK

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Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
« Reply #93 on: January 23, 2011, 08:21:45 pm »

Tidewater wrote on Sun, 23 January 2011 15:25



Huh? hahaha NO EFFIN WAY! You are saying it's a damned ransom payment UP FRONT!

Hey, I have guns. I have been robbed, just 3 years ago.. in my own driveway. Took $3500 cash and prizes, at gun point. Next robbers go home in a tisket, a tasket, robbers in a casket..

I defend, I don't relenquish. New rules.

Now you screwed the whole thing up, I won't be paying ransom for ANYTHING. rofl... HOW CHILDISH.


Why do you assume you'll be the only one with a gun, or the one who shoots first, or is a better shot?  
By your rules, whoever is the best at killing people gets whatever they want.
 By the rules some of us others are proposing, no one gets killed, everyone gets what they need, everyone makes some small sacrifices.  I prefer that scenario, but it does go against rugged American frontier individualism (which has always been a myth anyhow).

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Jay Kadis

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Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
« Reply #94 on: January 23, 2011, 08:26:11 pm »

Tidewater wrote on Sun, 23 January 2011 15:25

mgod wrote on Sun, 23 January 2011 15:31

Tidewater wrote on Sat, 22 January 2011 23:03

The moment that altruism becomes institutionalized will be the end of pure humanity.

Nonsense. Childish thinking. Sorry.

Unless you live in The Little Prince on a planet by yourself, you live in a town, in a state, in a country, in a world with others. Therefore, your security requires others to not need what you have. To protect yourself, the well-being of others is the essence of your own security. Call it "enlightened" self-interest if you like - in this case the enlightening realization that you breathe in what plants breathe out, unless your neighbor makes it un-breatheable.

Even the super-rich can't hire enough security to protect them from an ever-increasing number of poor and hungry forever. We are in this together. You are my burden, so start carrying.


Huh? hahaha NO EFFIN WAY! You are saying it's a damned ransom payment UP FRONT!

Hey, I have guns. I have been robbed, just 3 years ago.. in my own driveway. Took $3500 cash and prizes, at gun point. Next robbers go home in a tisket, a tasket, robbers in a casket..

I defend, I don't relenquish. New rules.

Now you screwed the whole thing up, I won't be paying ransom for ANYTHING. rofl... HOW CHILDISH.
The house I used to live in was burglarized 3 times, the last one I interrupted and to make a long story short, they went to jail. I was unarmed.  Lucky while not lucky.  Here's the thing - the level of crime is related to the overall well being of society.  The better the average person can do legitimately, the less they turn to crime.  A life of crime isn't something people generally seek out unless they feel they have no other options.  Not every criminal, some are just jerks or deranged, but the majority.  When the economic system is biased to concentrate the wealth at the top, the rest of us are pushed closer to the extremes.  What I fail to understand is why so many average people side with those who are working to  do just that?  You should WANT to help make sure that everyone does the best they can - the rising tide thing.

YZ

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Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
« Reply #95 on: January 23, 2011, 09:11:43 pm »

Jay,

Now wait there.

Criminality is not a function of the 'well being of society' in a material sense, else India would be one of the places with the highest crime rate in the world - and in fact criminality there is quite low.

Criminality is related to GREED.
Criminality is related to the feeling of impunity.
(Also, Criminality is related to drug usage.)

If you live in a society where GREED is the main driving force, and where people feel that they can 'get away with it', you'll have a higher level of criminality than in a society with different values.

That's why Wall Street etc is full of corruption and as seen in recent years, high-level crime: _that_ society is purely fueled by greed and they feel they can get away with anything.

Criminality is also fueled by the feeling of "what have I got to lose", so in a society where material well-being is the main motivator, some people who know they won't get very far up the ladder by working honestly - because they hate work - will turn to crime; include there the lazy ones, the bullies and the ones who think they're smarter than the next guy.

Honest people only resort to crime (and petty ones) as an absolute last resort and not as a way of life...  look back at the Depression and see the number of impoverished people who committed petty crimes with the purpose of spending a couple of nights in jail so that they could get a few meals...

So, going back: a society where greed is the main theme will have greater crime rates than one that's based on less selfish views.
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YZ

Tidewater

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Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
« Reply #96 on: January 24, 2011, 01:02:46 am »

A commandment? Pointed at me? Wrong God.

Umm.. I have the guns for protection. I don't start a robbery. I end one.

Now, back to the threats about people without healthcare supplied for free... you must be joking. If not, then I have no idea where to go. I am not going to live in fear of people burning down my house because they didn't see a doctor.

That is bullshit.
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mgod

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Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
« Reply #97 on: January 24, 2011, 01:40:26 am »

Tidewater wrote on Sun, 23 January 2011 22:02

Umm.. I have the guns for protection. I don't start a robbery. I end one.

FAR more likely, you end.
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YZ

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Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
« Reply #98 on: January 24, 2011, 02:06:52 am »

Tidewater wrote on Mon, 24 January 2011 04:02

Wrong God.


Sorry. I'm monotheistic and I assumed you were too.

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YZ

Tidewater

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Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
« Reply #99 on: January 24, 2011, 03:25:04 am »

mgod wrote on Mon, 24 January 2011 01:40

Tidewater wrote on Sun, 23 January 2011 22:02

Umm.. I have the guns for protection. I don't start a robbery. I end one.

FAR more likely, you end.



Ahh, you want me to disarm?

No.
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YZ

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Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
« Reply #100 on: January 24, 2011, 07:36:11 am »

Tidewater wrote on Mon, 24 January 2011 06:25

mgod wrote on Mon, 24 January 2011 01:40

Tidewater wrote on Sun, 23 January 2011 22:02

Umm.. I have the guns for protection. I don't start a robbery. I end one.

FAR more likely, you end.



Ahh, you want me to disarm?

No.


Actually most of us would prefer if you stayed on-topic (health care) instead of veering into unproductive sidelines.
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YZ

Barry Hufker

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Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
« Reply #101 on: January 24, 2011, 10:55:22 am »

Ken,

2014 is far enough away that we can make adjustments.
First we need to work on curing Medicaid fraud.  That is huge.  Then just let the bill play out to see how the insurance companies react.  They are going to try to weasel out.  Instead of being outraged now why not see how things really go?

Barry
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Wireline

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Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
« Reply #102 on: January 24, 2011, 11:28:43 am »

One reason to not wait it out is waiting only makes things worse, for some of the reasons I mentioned.  Who is supposed to be treating all of us, where are they going to do it, and who is going to pay for it?

There will be a whole lot more of us come 2014 as well, as us (you and I) baby-boomers start retiring in droves.  As we both know, getting older ain't for wussies - we need a whole lot more personalized care than the 20-somethings do.

Another thing to consider is the pure economics of it.  More and more people are opting to forego social security (immediate government income) and taking personal tax deferred retirement accounts, that will not be available for taxation for 20-40 years from now.  Those are structured as actual pay reductions, so the taxable income of millions of people is lowered - yet further reducing the immediately available income that will be needed come 1 Jan 2014.  Doctors, nurses, et al are most likely not going to work for IOUs...

Another matter that must be resolved before then are the interstate differences between insurance policies.  Some states have policies that contradict the fed's plan.  If the doctors in some states obey state law, they are subject to losing whatever Medicaid/Medicare funds are still available, and possible punitive action from the feds - if they ignore the states and go along with the feds, they could get shut down, even jailed, by the states.  Its a lose-lose situation (abortion immediately comes to mind)

Granted, there are things in the current plan that are appealing - but given the fact that no one knew about them until after the fact is a slap in the face of everyone eligible to vote.

Shumer 'threatened' to force a senate vote on every element of the house bill if push comes to shove...if it comes down to this, I'm all for it; at least we'd know in detail what is what.  The link you provided (thanks, BTW) does not really talk about anything except the superficials - doesn't talk about the nitty-gritty of all this.

Sidebar - Barry, appreciate the conversational dialog, man.  Neither of us is likely to change either's mind, but at least some level of understanding is being exchanged.
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mgod

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Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
« Reply #103 on: January 24, 2011, 11:51:02 am »

Tidewater wrote on Mon, 24 January 2011 00:25

Ahh, you want me to disarm?

No.

No, mostly I don't care what you do. But if I had a say, first I'd rather you not kill or get killed (the latter is far more likely, the former will still put you in a world of shit), and second I'd like you to look around you and see you're not alone, and that the world is not your enemy.
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Tidewater

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Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
« Reply #104 on: January 24, 2011, 03:35:55 pm »

I hear ya buddy, I don't think the World is my enemy.

Back on the health wagon, I don't want to participate in things that I consider ill-conceived. I don't like other people making choices for me, and I should have some freedom to choose.

The coolest thing about that is I believe you should have that same thing.

I am not pissed off, just concerned, on some topics *very concerned*.

I still don't understand calling coverage of a pre-existing condition "insurance". That is impossible, and $1M worth should cost $1M, or I must be missing the trick that gets us there.
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