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Author Topic: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick  (Read 44811 times)

Wireline

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Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
« Reply #75 on: January 22, 2011, 10:09:26 pm »



Quote:

Alan Grayson is one of the few true-talking politicians.


Was Grayson a true talker when (addressing health care) he spoke on the Congressional record that the only thing republicans wanted you to do when you got sick was to die quickly?

Where was the outrage when people were joking about raping Palin's daughter?  Is Thom Hartmann's claim that right wing radio is no more than a call to arms (literally)?  Was left wing radio talker John Sylvester's mocking Wisconson's Lt Gov Kleefisch and her battle with cancer, and making comments about her 'running a train' to bring business to her state a welcome addition to political dialog?

This is the kind of thing I am talking about Barry...We can exchange examples of 'spokespersons' on either side of the aisle, or we can acknowledge there are assholes on all sides of the fence, and work around these things to come up with an acceptable solution.

Naive - perhaps.  I prefer to think there are enough average Joe's left in this nation that still can tell BS from reality, regardless of which direction it comes from.  Once its all said and done, all we have is what we have - and what we have should not be under the control of any government.
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Ken Morgan
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Barry Hufker

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Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
« Reply #76 on: January 22, 2011, 11:30:50 pm »

Ken, you're not refuting my charges of racism with any evidence.

Health Care:
I hate to be repetitious but here are the facts I posted a few pages back.

1. Americans are already rationing health care based on the current system
    http://crooksandliars.com/jon-perr/americans-self-rationing- health-care

2. "Red" states have the worst health care:
    http://crooksandliars.com/jon-perr/red-states-unhealthiest-r esidents-worst-health-care

3. Here, then, is the Republican 10-Point Plan for Health Care (which is not to change anything).
1. 50 Million Uninsured in America
2. Another 25 Million Under-insured
3. Employer-Based Coverage Plummets Below 60%
4. Employer Health Costs to Jump by 9% in 2010
5. One in Five Americans Forced to Postpone Care
6. 62% of U.S. Bankruptcies Involve Medical Bills
7. Current Health Care Costs Already Fueling Job Losses
8. 94% of Health Insurance Markets in U.S Now "Highly Concentrated" -- in other words, in the hands a limited number of companies.
9. Dramatic Decline in Emergency Room Capacity
10. Perpetuating Red State Health Care Failure

You tell me Ken how the Republicans are improving health care.

Barry

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YZ

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Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
« Reply #77 on: January 23, 2011, 12:51:57 am »

It's nearly 4AM here and my mind may not be all that clear, but...

To the U.S. conservatives:

If I understood it right, the conservative position is that no citizen shall be forced to pay for another citizen's health care via the use of taxation or any other means to 'socialize' it; some have expressed they don't wish to be 'a burden' to other citizens, and the general conservative consensus is that one has to think, plan and act by himself in order to provide health care for his family without being a 'drain' on the whole society.

OK.

I won't discuss that. I just want to know if the above is 'the conservative point of view' and that it is the 'official' party line of the US Right.

If that is so, THEN:

It's time for the conservative political leaders to show they have guts and that they mean what they say by proposing the total abolition of health care benefits for the political class; politicians should not be a burden on society by receiving the luxury of first-class FREE medical attention while the common hardworking people have to WORK for it.

To the U.S. liberals:

If I understood it right, the liberal position is that no citizen shall be subject to inferior health care and risk bankruptcy from medical bills, via the use of taxation or any other means to provide some semblance of a more egalitarian and accessible public health care system; the general liberal consensus is that one shouldn't be left alone by society because of an illness, that society has a whole has a duty to extend a caring hand to all citizens in a dignified way; health care is a right of all citizens.

If that is so, THEN:

It's time for the liberal political leaders to show they have guts and that they mean what they say by proposing the total abolition of health care benefits for the political class; politicians should not receive the luxury of quality FREE medical attention paid by the whole society until the whole society can have it too.

Do I make sense?

Time to show the politicos who the **** is in charge.
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regards,

YZ

mgod

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Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
« Reply #78 on: January 23, 2011, 01:52:22 am »

Wireline wrote on Sat, 22 January 2011 19:09

 
Quote:

Alan Grayson is one of the few true-talking politicians.

Was Grayson a true talker when (addressing health care) he spoke on the Congressional record that the only thing republicans wanted you to do when you got sick was to die quickly?

Completely. That's the fundamental premise of the insurance run system. What he omitted was that the Dems support it too.

And this name "Obamacare" - this is just a giveaway to insurance companies, as is everything in the US - some sort of giveaway to the largest contributor.
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Tidewater

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Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
« Reply #79 on: January 23, 2011, 02:03:34 am »

Jay Kadis wrote on Sat, 22 January 2011 21:19




Even though you might not be able to provide for me, we should collectively be able to cover you if we have better fortune and you need it.



Humbled again. Please don't do it with a mandate.

The moment that altruism becomes institutionalized will be the end of pure humanity. I believe this, and it may be the core of my disagreeance.

I must be able to choose, no matter what the choices are.

Wow, it took you like 10 posts, but I think I got you figured out MG. You can ride on my back next time we get to deep water!
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jonathan jetter

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Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
« Reply #80 on: January 23, 2011, 02:04:30 am »

mgod wrote on Sat, 22 January 2011 20:08


Then our government must suck uniquely. Plenty of other people and their governments have figured this out.


this is essentially my view on the matter.

our government exists to serve a very small % of the super-wealthy, and generally remembers to pay just enough lip service to everyone else so that the masses don't take to the street with weapons.
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YZ

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Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
« Reply #81 on: January 23, 2011, 02:33:51 am »

Tidewater wrote on Sun, 23 January 2011 05:03


I must be able to choose, no matter what the choices are.


You'll still be able to choose NOT to use the public health system if you don't want to 'be a burden'.

A lot of well-to-do people (and not-so-well-to-do) in my country choose not to use our public health system...

I find that's a very altruistic attitude, leaving the public system to the most needy but never refraining from contributing to its maintenance.

The next paragraphs are _not_ directed at you personally:

What I feel is that a number of people don't want to contribute to someone else's well-being out of sheer greed and want to masquerade as altruistic 'christian' people who want to pick and choose whom to help...  which is in fact against all christian beliefs...  seek no reward or gratitude from your good actions, do it because it is the right thing to do; who is entitled to decide who's worthy and who isn't besides God?

So many people like to be able to say to themselves "I donated $50 to help that colleague I know and respect, so I did my duty, I'm at peace with my religious beliefs then" while so many deserving but unknown and distant individuals remain suffering...

I tell you what, every time I receive wages here, a percentage is discounted towards our state health care system, and I find it VERY comforting to know that somewhere, hundreds of miles away from where I am, someone in need is being helped by my contribution, someone I never knew and may never hear about; that there is less misery because I don't have to locate, pick and choose amongst the needy; that we do have a system that tries to care for everybody in need and while FAR from perfect, works better than individual-to-individual contributions.

NOTE: when I'm 'working solo', I pay from my own free will a monthly contribution to our state health system. I could choose not to do so, and that choice would have NO impact in my ability to use the system if I ever need it.

But I pay.
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regards,

YZ

Tidewater

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Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
« Reply #82 on: January 23, 2011, 03:10:17 am »

Does that mean I should stop requiring an email address from the homeless people I give food to?

I missed ethics, but marketing was a really fun class.
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Wireline

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Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
« Reply #83 on: January 23, 2011, 08:19:17 am »

Barry, as it sets, the republicans aren't...Obama's forced HRC was a big ol wakeup call though.  Perhaps now that they tasted how European and US values differ in this matter, and how there is a national desire for something to get done, just not this current plan, maybe they will figure out that for continued employment, they best come up with something together, or they can join the soup lines...As it stands, on one has explained with any real validity how this thing (as is) will be paid for, as long as states, counties, cities, hospital districts, school districts, my brother's district, etc, can all add a tax to whatever you spend - oh yeah, everyone I know on a payroll took a big old hit on their 2011 monthly already, smack dab in the middle of high heating fuel costs, very expensive gasoline, raising food prices, and of course, skyrocketing prescription drugs.  All of these things cannot be separated - each and every penny that comes out of the families' monthly income must be taken into account...and yes, some families will benefit greatly from the current plan (if then can last until it becomes fully effective), while the new drain might be the end of others - so depending on your perspective, the current plan can be a lifesaver or a death sentence.

And this is the whole point of repeal, and start again.

I'll take my medicine.  Cram it down my throat and I'm likely to puke it back up on the doctor's pretty shirt, fire him, pinch the nurse's butt on the way out, and file suit on the whole lot of them.  This seems to be what is happening now.  Again, superficially it's a Rep/Dem argument, but in coffee shops, kitchens, county fairs, etc, any place where the average citizens are likely to be found, I believe its more of an American issue, not a partisan one.

And those who make it partisan for political gain should be recalled or removed from office at the earliest possible cycle.  

Not every issue confronting the nation MUST become an us vs. them, based solely on which letter appears on their voting card.
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Ken Morgan
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Jon Hodgson

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Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
« Reply #84 on: January 23, 2011, 08:21:49 am »

Tidewater wrote on Sun, 23 January 2011 00:30

The best way I can deal with all this is alone, the way we come in, and the way we go out. I am not going to cost you a dime. Do not provide for me, please. It saddens me that I cannot provide for you, but I can't.


Yes you can.

Because if you get together on this thing, you can all provide for each other, you can all have the healthiest lives that medical care can give you and the easiest most dignified death.

You can all do it without being bankrupt as you reach the end, adding the misery of the state you leave your family in.

And it can all be cheaper than every man for himself.

You as an individual MIGHT be lucky in health and so unlucky in payment, since you'll be paying for care you don't use yourself (but if you have insurance then you'd have been doing that anyway).

You might also be unlucky in health, and so lucky in payment.

And since a decent socialized system is cheaper than the what you had (don't know about what you now have), then statistically speaking, you'll probably be better off financially.

Nobody has yet achieved the utopia I describe, at least not the first bit, but socialized systems are a lot closer to it than what you seem to be clinging to.

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Jon Hodgson

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Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
« Reply #85 on: January 23, 2011, 08:28:54 am »

Tidewater wrote on Sun, 23 January 2011 07:03

The moment that altruism becomes institutionalized will be the end of pure humanity. I believe this, and it may be the core of my disagreeance.


Oh dear, so that means, I, YZ, any Canadians here, etc are all members of some group that is not "pure humanity"?

Because we all live in countries that have institutionalized the altruism you're talking about.

And much as we might gripe about the National Health Service, much as we might feel it could be improved, ask a Brit whether he wants the NHS replaced by the traditional US system, and I'd lay good odds you'll get a few choice words about "humanity".
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Les Ismore

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Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
« Reply #86 on: January 23, 2011, 03:29:48 pm »

There is nobody and I mean NOBODY in Canada who would like to go back to a US style system (except for some private insurance companies, for profit private medical companies and a few politicians they own).

If universal healthcare is really such a horrible idea to the US, then they should also make fire protection, police, schools, road maintenance, and all the other basic services a for profit user pay system as well. Otherwise you are lying.
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mgod

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Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
« Reply #87 on: January 23, 2011, 03:31:48 pm »

Tidewater wrote on Sat, 22 January 2011 23:03

The moment that altruism becomes institutionalized will be the end of pure humanity.

Nonsense. Childish thinking. Sorry.

Unless you live in The Little Prince on a planet by yourself, you live in a town, in a state, in a country, in a world with others. Therefore, your security requires others to not need what you have. To protect yourself, the well-being of others is the essence of your own security. Call it "enlightened" self-interest if you like - in this case the enlightening realization that you breathe in what plants breathe out, unless your neighbor makes it un-breatheable.

Even the super-rich can't hire enough security to protect them from an ever-increasing number of poor and hungry forever. We are in this together. You are my burden, so start carrying.
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Barry Hufker

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Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
« Reply #88 on: January 23, 2011, 04:15:28 pm »

Ken,  it seems to me you are confused about the new Health Care laws.  So many think it is a government health care but it's not.  It is a reform of the private companies and what they are allowed to do and not do.  There is no government health insurance.  That was the single payer plan which never passed.  And there is still no requirement that you have health insurance.  There is no need to scrap anything and start over.  That's Republican speak for let's not do anything.  Why?  Because the Republicans don't have a health care plan, as I've previously pointed out.

Once again, THERE IS NO GOVERNMENT REQUIRED HEALTH CARE COVERAGE AND THERE IS NO GOVERNMENT HEALTH CARE (except Medicare/Medicaid).  So there is no need to scrap anything.

Please go here to understand the new law better.
http://www.healthcare.gov/law/introduction/index.html

Barry

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Wireline

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Re: State of US healthcare - what we can do to not go bankrupt when we're sick
« Reply #89 on: January 23, 2011, 04:39:33 pm »

Barry, what I ask is for you to look at 1 Jan 2014, and note that the Internal Revenue Service has been specifically tasked to make the determination of who can afford it, and how much fines to levy if they choose not to.

Does this sound voluntary to you?

The same reference makes all sorts of hoopla about Medicaid - you are aware (I hope) that in many parts of the nation, doctors of all sorts are refusing to accept new medicare and medicaid patients because of these government programs don't pay the going rates, are notorious slow to pay, and in many cases refuse claims?  Relying on these things is business suicide from the doctor's point of view now, much less in the future.

See, all these things are fine and dandy in theory - in reality, they cannot work for a couple of very real reasons.  First, if there is a critical doctor/nurse shortage now, with fewer and fewer entering the field, who is going to treat all these people?  Doctors can only work so many hours a day.  Most doctors here don't speak English as their primary language - this doesn't help the matter when patients needs translators.

Secondly, with the economy already tanking, forcing people to buy insurance under the control of government regulation and enforcement is, regardless of how you want to brand it, government health care.  When the IRS can fine you for NOT buying health care (punitive action) that is government health care.

Third, and most important IMO, the people who this affects the most never had one iota of sayso in whether we wanted this or not.  It was jammed down our throats.  An awful lot of us resent that fact, and even if it was sugar coated, its still suspiciously resembling a turd.  Give us, the voting bloc, at least the courtesy of asking us if we would like to eat the sugar coated turd...maybe we could come up with something a bit nicer.

That's what we are asking for...a little more control of what in essence is being dictated to us.
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Ken Morgan
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