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Author Topic: visual spacers on vinyl concurrent with audio?  (Read 2360 times)

kywoman

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visual spacers on vinyl concurrent with audio?
« on: January 12, 2011, 12:08:28 am »

Is there a way to have a visual spacer appear on vinyl even though audio runs throughout the side?  For example, let's say you've got a live recording of 4 songs, each 5 minutes long with crowd noise no fades between songs - just a straight unedited 20 minutes of live recording.  Of course on a CD, markers can be placed next to each other for gapless track ID transitions, but is there a way to have a visual groove to mark where each part begins/ends without a break in the actual audio on vinyl?  My understanding was that spacers could be placed if and only if there was silence from the source, and therefore this isn't possible with a continuous track.  Please explain!  Thanks,
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TotalSonic

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Re: visual spacers on vinyl concurrent with audio?
« Reply #1 on: January 12, 2011, 01:31:49 am »

There's no problem at all with having audio occurring in the "spiral" (aka "marker") - there's tons of records that have this in fact (and I have cut a good number of DMM sides with "s.i.s." - sound in the spirals - as well).  All you have to do is let the cutting engineer know where to place these by providing them a cue sheet with the start times these are to occur for each side.

The only reason some people prefer not to have sound occur during the spirals is to allow for easier cueing of the start of the track for the DJ or end listener, and also because of the fact that they need to be manually placed by the cutting engineer and they only get one pass at getting it right (or else they have to recut the entire side) means they usually can't be placed absolutely precisely.  But again technically there is absolutely no reason why you can't have audio still occurring during the wider pitched grooves that are what is done to create the marker.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

lowland

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Re: visual spacers on vinyl concurrent with audio?
« Reply #2 on: January 12, 2011, 02:46:29 am »

Interesting answer, Steve - as a non-lathe person I've wondered about this myself.
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Nigel Palmer
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dietrich

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Re: visual spacers on vinyl concurrent with audio?
« Reply #3 on: January 12, 2011, 08:54:50 am »

I'd say at least 50% of the past years LP jobs have at least partial fade segments between tracks. Most clients now send one long audio file per side with time notes for the visual markers

D

kywoman

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Re: visual spacers on vinyl concurrent with audio?
« Reply #4 on: January 12, 2011, 09:38:23 am »

Is there a standard length for these?  I.e., will a single marker suffice, or should I place markers to indicate the length of the spacer?

Steve, if I'm interpreting it correctly, the spiral is caused by an increased lateral cut?  If so, why isn't there any degradation in audio quality  (it's early, too early, can't sort out vertical vs. horizontal in my tired head.)

Thanks,
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TotalSonic

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Re: visual spacers on vinyl concurrent with audio?
« Reply #5 on: January 12, 2011, 10:37:44 am »

kywoman wrote on Wed, 12 January 2011 09:38

Is there a standard length for these?


Most lathes these days allow for several different widths.  I forget offhand what the options for most Neumann lathes are as it's been 5-1/2 years since I've gotten to operate one -  but the wider spacing can occur from something like a 1/2 second to 2 seconds.  Generally for LP's where conserving space is a necessity the narrower widths for spiral will be used - while for DJ oriented 12" singles wider spirals will often be used to allow for easier cueing.

Quote:


I.e., will a single marker suffice,


yes, it will

Quote:

or should I place markers to indicate the length of the spacer?


If you request it and indicate the places on your cue sheet then it's likely that the cutting engineer will be able to use two different widths of spirals at where you request it so that you can have something equivalent to indexes and subindexes.

Quote:


Steve, if I'm interpreting it correctly, the spiral is caused by an increased lateral cut?


Yes, the spiral is caused by increasing the pitch - so there is more uncut "land" between the grooves.  As long as the lathe is functioning properly there is absolutely no degradation from increasing the speed of the feedscrew (which is how pitch is increased) as audio is being cut - in fact if anything a wider spacing guarantees that there are no overcuts (which occur if grooves overlap).

Best regards,
Steve Berson

kywoman

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Re: visual spacers on vinyl concurrent with audio?
« Reply #6 on: January 12, 2011, 12:35:52 pm »

Thanks Steve, all makes sense - cheers!
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Gold

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Re: visual spacers on vinyl concurrent with audio?
« Reply #7 on: January 12, 2011, 02:56:30 pm »

kywoman wrote on Wed, 12 January 2011 09:38

Is there a standard length for these?  


No. The size of the spiral would be measured in lines per inch. This physical description has nothing to do with actual time. The motor that moves the carriage just runs faster. Both LPI and duration of the spiral are adjustable on a Neumann lathe. I imagine no two are the same.
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Paul Gold
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On the silk road, looking for uranium.

Bob Weston

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Re: visual spacers on vinyl concurrent with audio?
« Reply #8 on: January 12, 2011, 05:05:52 pm »

TotalSonic wrote on Wed, 12 January 2011 09:37

kywoman wrote on Wed, 12 January 2011 09:38

Is there a standard length for these?


Most lathes these days allow for several different widths.  I forget offhand what the options for most Neumann lathes are as it's been 5-1/2 years since I've gotten to operate one



Our Neumann VMS70 Pitch Motor has preset timed spiral lengths at:

0.25
0.5
0.7
1
1.2
1.5
2

seconds

Or you can hold down the "Spiral" button for as long as you like.

bw



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TotalSonic

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Re: visual spacers on vinyl concurrent with audio?
« Reply #9 on: January 12, 2011, 06:06:42 pm »

Bob Weston wrote on Wed, 12 January 2011 17:05

TotalSonic wrote on Wed, 12 January 2011 09:37

kywoman wrote on Wed, 12 January 2011 09:38

Is there a standard length for these?


Most lathes these days allow for several different widths.  I forget offhand what the options for most Neumann lathes are as it's been 5-1/2 years since I've gotten to operate one



Our Neumann VMS70 Pitch Motor has preset timed spiral lengths at:

0.25
0.5
0.7
1
1.2
1.5
2

seconds

Or you can hold down the "Spiral" button for as long as you like.

bw




Bob -
thanks for refreshing my memory.  I'm pretty positive the VMS-80/82 has the same options as well.  

For older manual variable pitch lathes such as my Fairchild (or early Scully's) for spirals you can either manually shift the pitch to a wider setting (80 lpi is the widest spacing on my lathe) for however much time you want - or you can give the hand crank for the feed screw a turn of whatever amount you want (i.e. 1/4 turn, 1/2 turn, full turns, etc.)

Best regards,
Steve Berson

Gold

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Re: visual spacers on vinyl concurrent with audio?
« Reply #10 on: January 12, 2011, 07:00:10 pm »

Bob Weston wrote on Wed, 12 January 2011 17:05



Our Neumann VMS70 Pitch Motor has preset timed spiral lengths at:






But the LPI for the preset times is continuously variable with the "S" pot on the programmer. Could be 16LPI or 60LPI. It will play the audio the same way but look different. Every programmer will be a little different. I tweaked mine for prettiest spiral.
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Paul Gold
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TotalSonic

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Re: visual spacers on vinyl concurrent with audio?
« Reply #11 on: January 12, 2011, 07:11:50 pm »

Gold wrote on Wed, 12 January 2011 19:00

I tweaked mine for prettiest spiral.


Yup - lots of collectors prize their records solely on the way the spirals look - but all that I've talked to say yours are the prettiest.   Very Happy

Best regards,
Steve Berson
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