Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[rjd2]

^^^^ what they said on MONEY.

on FRIENDS:

you know how they say a woman can tell w/in 3 minutes of meeting a guy whether she'll sleep with them? i think musos should do the same thing with each other: decide early on-FRIENDS OR BIZ associates. 1 or the other.

[Bill Mueller]

rjd2 wrote on Tue, 04 January 2011 17:46

you know how they say a woman can tell w/in 3 minutes of meeting a guy whether she'll sleep with them?

What the hell takes them so long?

Bill

[jetbase]

rjd2 wrote on Wed, 05 January 2011 09:46

on FRIENDS: you know how they say a woman can tell w/in 3 minutes of meeting a guy whether she'll sleep with them? i think musos should do the same thing with each other: decide early on-FRIENDS OR BIZ associates. 1 or the other.

In my experience that's not always true. One of my most important clients happens to be one of my best friends. Often his material is released before I have received payment. I realise that's an exception, but when you say friends or business it doesn't ring true for me.

[MDM,]

The EP master is your propriety until he pays for it, right? You just can't exploit it without his permission.

I would give him MP3's of the finished masters to shop around IF you really are friends and IF you really do believe in the music and I would also consider IF you think he really will be able to get an advance to pay you with.

otherwise just say you have other business to attend to right now and that when he has the money you will terminate the job.

[Nick Sevilla]

Andy Meyer wrote on Tue, 04 January 2011 09:38

[SNIP] Basically, I worked about 30 hours to come up with 1 finished mix, 1 mix that was originally ok'd then later denied and 1 song that was %85 mixed.  I mix on a console and outboard mostly.  There are 5 songs on the E.P. At this point I was still waiting for money from our previous project which had ended 2 months prior.  I had not been paid for any of the work on the new project.  I decided to ask for some money before I continued working on these mixes.  At this point he owed me around $1700 (which is a lot of money to me). It has now been a month since mixing was halted. He is now paid up with the first project and only has a balance on the E.P.  We talked today and he wants to finish up mixing. He feels that he needs a finished product before he feels comfortable paying.  I partially understand that.   He also said that he needs final mixes to shop around to labels in order to drum up finances to pay me. It seems crazy for me to hand out finished mixes without getting paid.  I told him that my getting paid shouldn't rely on him getting label support.  We never agreed to a spec deal and I am not making any points on this record. We have agreed to finish the mixes but I won't burn off any listening copies until I am paid. Have you guys been in this situation before?  I have been making records for about 10 years professionally and I have never let things get this out of hand.  What would you do?  What have you done?   Any insight would be welcome. Thanks in advance. -Andy

Hi,

1.- ALWAYS GET AN UPFRONT DEPOSIT ON ANY NEW WORK. Or a binding contract, if cash is not available to suck into your bank.

2.- His attitude is not quite right. He is trying to NOT pay. At least that is how I'd be looking at it. I've quit on major artists who try to pull this same exact thing off in the past with me. Something smells here.

3.- Your italicized comment above, "I partially understand that"
What exactly do you understand... he paid up before, he should pay up now.

Please refer to this handy video, which will explain everything to you clearly :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9J49AdgwSg


Your artists friend is either in a "Catch 22" situation, or he will simply have to wait until he has the $$$ to pay you BEFORE he "shops around" with your mixes.

Here is the simple facts :

He ALREADY PAID for a WHOLE ALBUM of your mixes. That means he likes your work. Now, what is the complaint? Nothing, really.

He wants to get a free EP out of you, and "shop it" around? Please.

This does not happen in the real world.

Cheers

[Nick Sevilla]

jonathan jetter wrote on Tue, 04 January 2011 10:45

i have too much of a "nice guy" streak for my own good, considering that i am not nearly rich enough to be secure for the long-term, and so i sometimes end up in similar situations. i have resolved to fix this for 2011, because it sucks.  i am not (and should not be) an interest-free bank for my clients.  i can still be a nice person while absolutely insisting that i am paid on time. when you very clearly explain the terms of payment in advance of the project, then there will rarely be problems. either 50% up front + 50% upon completion, before delivery, or just the full 100% up front.  if they are recording off and on, a session here and then another session a few weeks later, i just have them pay separately for each session. but there is no way that mixes go out without payment.  i have a very few clients that i am also proud to count as close friends, and for them, i make exceptions.  but it's important to draw a distinction between the few that are truly friends, and the majority with whom you are still friendly.

Good points there.

I think you, the OP, should make a definite appointment just to talk about the situation with this artist. And nothing else.

Go get some coffee somewhere, and sit and listen and talk.

Hash it out. It seems you value his friendship, so if it means that much to you, then it behooves the both of you to get through this situation properly.

Just so you know, I only have one (1) client whom I give mixes out to and get paid after the fact. But, I must say, this client has become my friend AFTER having worked together many many years. I have known this person for 12 years, which is close to my full pro career. we have never ever had an issue with money, deadlines, or anything.

As to anyone else that I work for, even my family, of which I have one cousin that I occasionally work with, EVERYONE pays a deposit up front.

In fact, I am going down to Mexico City next week to get just such a deposit to mix a record.

Cheers

[jrmintz]

Ultimately it comes down to whether or not you trust the guy, and you have to go with your gut. You can screw up a good relationship by getting too heavy with the business stuff too fast. It's really frightening to some people. The fact is you will get burned some unknown percentage of the time with contracts or without. I'm afraid it's inevitable.

[Andy Meyer]

Many good perspectives here you guys.  There is a lot to consider.

I have had tons of great friends as clients before with no money problems.  Being treated this way obviously makes me question motives for friendship.

This is a guy who will be put off if I take the business angle too far.  Having said that, I do want to make a firm arrangement with mixing and payment before we begin work again.

We did get in a pretty direct conversation last night for about a half hour.  I am really glad that it happened.  I got to say everything that I have said in this thread.  When it comes down to it I do trust the guy to pay me.  It took a very long time to collect payment before from him and I don't want to get into that cycle with him.

During that conversation he was noticeably upset that the mixes were not finished yet.  His initial idea was to get it done fast.  I had already spent a week away from home and 30 hours on the mixing when I asked for the balance of the full length that was long finished.  At this time I also had other paying clients to work on.  I decided to halt mixing until we were at least square with the LP payment.  Is this wrong?

I think that I can be firm and kind with him at the same time.  I am a really patient guy and I feel like I have pretty good tact.  I'll keep you guys updated.

Thanks again,
Andy

[jrmintz]

Andy Meyer wrote on Tue, 04 January 2011 20:03

I decided to halt mixing until we were at least square with the LP payment.  Is this wrong?

Not at all. If he gets antsy and asks about the mixes, you tell him you are working for other people who are paying and you'll get to his thing when you have time. He must know he can't be your top priority if you have other paying customers.

[DarinK]

jrmintz wrote on Tue, 04 January 2011 17:21

Andy Meyer wrote on Tue, 04 January 2011 20:03  I decided to halt mixing until we were at least square with the LP payment.  Is this wrong? Not at all. If he gets antsy and asks about the mixes, you tell him you are working for other people who are paying and you'll get to his thing when you have time. He must know he can't be your top priority if you have other paying customers.

Exactly, but be very diplomatic about this.  Artists can be sensitive, and each wants to believe that he/she is your favorite, so make sure to emphasize how much you like the project and are looking forward to getting back to it.  If he thinks you're working on other projects first for any reason other than the money (or 'first-come, first-served' scheduling), it can become a problem.  Especially since you're in a minor dispute right now anyway, be sure he doesn't assume you're putting off his project because of some hard feelings on your part.

[Barry Hufker]

"I think that he has pursued more of a friendship with me than I him."

Exactly.  You have something he wants.


Barry

[Bubba#$%Kron]

Has anyone ever said to a car mechanic they need to drive around to make the money for repairs first!?!?

Just sayin.....

[Edward Vinatea]

Pretty much everything said by the other posters is all good common sense and you should consider it. However, if you decide to make things more 'legally binding', create an agreement and get it notarized.

Keep in mind that if he defaults and his real legal address is outside your state, you will have to travel to make a claim against him.

Just in case, of course.

Best of luck,

Edward

[wwittman]

There are people I KNOW I will get paid from, and people I don't.

If I know they will pay me, I don't worry about it. I KNOW that eventually I will be paid.

If it's not that person, I get a PO or withold work until I get paid, but that's extremely rare

Mostly, I don't and won't work for people I can't trust.

[rankus]

ssltech wrote on Tue, 04 January 2011 12:11

rankus wrote on Tue, 04 January 2011 14:44 Me too.  NOTHING leaves until the bill is paid.  No refs, no mixes, no tracks. And it's ALWAYS been "friends" who have been the most problematic in the pay dept I've had exactly the same experience, Rick. It's always been YOUR friends who have been the most trouble! Keef

Kieth, can I get you to front me (and install)  that 64chan G series we talked about so I can mix this project I'm working on?  I promise I'll pay you once the album goes platinum and I get the check from the major (still to be shopped to labels but I KNOW it'll be a major) ... I'll even make sure you get a credit on the cd cover!