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Author Topic: Transformer vs. Transformerless Microphones !??!  (Read 25503 times)

Seb Riou

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Re: Transformer vs. Transformerless Microphones !??!
« Reply #15 on: December 31, 2010, 08:55:55 am »

Though a bit on the "hard" side, the Schoeps CMC5 (transformerless) is my favourite mic for stringed instruments .

I'd want a transformer on any highly percussive source, or one moving a lot of air.

But again I've just recorded a female singer with the above mentioned CMC5 , so as Keith stated : whatever works !

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Edward Vinatea

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Re: Transformer vs. Transformerless Microphones !??!
« Reply #16 on: December 31, 2010, 09:10:43 am »

Quote:

Already asked by the OP, and none of your posts addressed any of his questions.


If I go sifting through your replies on this forum, will I also find instances where you didn't answer the OP?

Quote:

However, please enlighten us about a few points raised recently by you in this and another thread:

- do specs matter when choosing a piece of equipment during a recording session, or should the engineer rely on his knowledge and experimentation to decide which one to use in order to achieve the sound that the client is after and/or that will better serve the sonic goals at hand?


both, specs and experience are NOT mutually exclusive.

Quote:

- your response to the above applies only to microphones or does it apply to signal processing gear too?

- if it applies only to microphones, why is it so?


There are no absolutes in audio engineering, for the most part, you need to literally 'play it by ear'.

Quote:

There are other points, but the 3 above shall suffice for now.


As soon as I answer your 3 points, you'll want to raise more points. Don't waste your time making questions that you already know the answers to based on your empirical experience.

"Whatever works" is indeed the perfect mantra. Now live and breathe that.

Happy new Year 2011!

Edward

YZ

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Re: Transformer vs. Transformerless Microphones !??!
« Reply #17 on: December 31, 2010, 09:34:31 am »

Edward Vinatea wrote on Fri, 31 December 2010 12:10


As soon as I answer your 3 points, you'll want to raise more points.
Don't waste your time making questions that you already know the answers to based on your empirical experience.



May I reply to that with another quote from you:

Edward Vinatea wrote on Wed, 29 December 2010 18:04

people who are truly polite and smart usually ask about it before passing a judgment on me or jumping into conclusions.



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regards,

YZ

Edward Vinatea

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Re: Transformer vs. Transformerless Microphones !??!
« Reply #18 on: December 31, 2010, 10:05:01 am »

YZ wrote on Fri, 31 December 2010 09:34

Edward Vinatea wrote on Fri, 31 December 2010 12:10


As soon as I answer your 3 points, you'll want to raise more points.
Don't waste your time making questions that you already know the answers to based on your empirical experience.



May I reply to that with another quote from you:

Edward Vinatea wrote on Wed, 29 December 2010 18:04

people who are truly polite and smart usually ask about it before passing a judgment on me or jumping into conclusions.





Mr. Yves Zimelman, I know you are in Brazil, but may I remind you that you are in an English speaking forum? If I am making assumptions of what you're trying to say, then I am sorry.

Empirical experience is not an insult but a description of one's source of knowledge. And in my opinion, hands on/observation/experience trumps over any technical specifications and/or AES text books any time.

Edward

Jim Williams

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Re: Transformer vs. Transformerless Microphones !??!
« Reply #19 on: December 31, 2010, 10:15:01 am »

FWIW, and although not fashionable at this moment, I do use and enjoy my transformerless mics.

I have some Josephson's and used to have Schoeps CMC's, but those sounded too colored for me. My favorite 1/2" is the AKG460B and the 1" 414B is also good without the iron.

They may not be the soup of the day to record Justin Beaver or some other pop tart of the week for a mass MP-3 download, but for opera, classical, jazz, folk and roots music, they work great.
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Jim Williams
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Wireline

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Re: Transformer vs. Transformerless Microphones !??!
« Reply #20 on: December 31, 2010, 10:24:59 am »

I've never done this, but what would stop someone from putting a 600:600 transformer on the audio legs of the output, leaving the phantom power line untouched?

I've seen plenty of examples in which people wired in some sort of  1:1 transformers into their mixbuss for ITB projects with what they describe as noticeable success...

Jes asking
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Ken Morgan
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Otitis Media

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Re: Transformer vs. Transformerless Microphones !??!
« Reply #21 on: December 31, 2010, 12:03:14 pm »

I think a simple answer to Bubba's question is:

Transformerless mics can be less expensive to make and avoid the phase shift and saturation effects of a transformer, which can color the sound. Many of us are chasing those very effects, and therefore may not see the value in a microphone without a transformer.

It's not my favorite microphone, but I've used the Neumann TLM103 on a bunch of stuff (especially female voiceovers) with satisfying results.

I *adore* Schoeps gear, too. Neither of those positive statements is driven by the circuit topology, though. They're just pieces of gear that I found useful and pleasant to work with. I tend not to worry so much analyzing HOW something is designed and concern myself with the SOUND.

FWIW, YMMV.
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Dan Roth
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ssltech

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Re: Transformer vs. Transformerless Microphones !??!
« Reply #22 on: December 31, 2010, 03:00:55 pm »

I'm with Dan.

His reply is wonderfully succinct. -I probably need to learn the art of brevity.

I too love me some Schoeps.

Keith
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MDM (maxdimario) wrote on Fri, 16 November 2007 21:36

I have the feeling that I have more experience in my little finger than you do in your whole body about audio electronics..

Jay Kadis

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Re: Transformer vs. Transformerless Microphones !??!
« Reply #23 on: December 31, 2010, 03:04:44 pm »

I have used the TLM-193 quite a bit.  It's a neutral sounding mic that comes into play when I want the natural sound to come through with detail but without exaggeration.

Fig

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Re: Transformer vs. Transformerless Microphones !??!
« Reply #24 on: January 03, 2011, 01:41:39 pm »

Jay Kadis wrote on Fri, 31 December 2010 14:04

I have used the TLM-193 quite a bit.  It's a neutral sounding mic that comes into play when I want the natural sound to come through with detail but without exaggeration.


+1, Jay.

I become more and more enamoured with this mic each time I use it.

FWIW, I don't consciously choose a transformer or transformerless mic - I pick the one that flatters the source, or in the case of the TLM193 - leaves the source intact.

$0.02.

Osci-later,

Fig
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The easiest thing to do is the thing most easily forgotten.

Fletcher

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Re: Transformer vs. Transformerless Microphones !??!
« Reply #25 on: January 03, 2011, 02:06:07 pm »

Fig wrote on Mon, 03 January 2011 13:41

I don't consciously choose a transformer or transformerless mic - I pick the one that flatters the source


Exactly.

You pick the tool that best accomplishes the task and move on from there.  At the end of the day nobody cares about anything than the results -- you get results that suit the clients' aesthetic and chances are you will stay employed... if you don't get those results, chances are you get fired [or don't get called for the next gig].

Choosing a tool based on some notion that one of the components [vs. the "sum of the parts"] will take you to the promised land is a fool's endeavor... at least it is in my twisted opinion, as always - YMMV.

Peace.
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CN Fletcher

mwagener wrote on Sat, 11 September 2004 14:33
We are selling emotions, there are no emotions in a grid


"Recording engineers are an arrogant bunch.  
If you've spent most of your life with a few thousand dollars worth of musicians in the studio, making a decision every second and a half... and you and  they are going to have to live with it for the rest of your lives, you'll get pretty arrogant too.  It takes a certain amount of balls to do that... something around three"
Malcolm Chisholm

David Bock

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Re: Transformer vs. Transformerless Microphones !??!
« Reply #26 on: January 05, 2011, 02:22:08 pm »

holding costs irrelevant, I'm going to violate current religious doctrine and state that there actually ARE applications, at least in music, where a transformerless microphone yields superior results to transformer coupled mics.

J.J. Blair

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Re: Transformer vs. Transformerless Microphones !??!
« Reply #27 on: January 05, 2011, 08:29:21 pm »

Most of the transformerless mics that I don't care for, which is the great majority of them, has less to do wit the lack of transformer, and more to do with other aspects of the design. And in some cases, the impedance converter used in lieu of the transformer may be a culprit, but I suspect it has more to do with the capsule, amplifier and filter circuits.  

The other thing to take into account, that I don't think anybody has mentioned yet, is that in tube mics, transformers are made specifically to work with that tube, and the tube and capsule have a symbiotic relationship, as well.  There is a delicate balance.  One of the reasons that many substitutes for the VF14 made the mic sound like ass has more to do with the tube not pairing well with the transformer, and less to do with the sound of the tube.

Now, as far as getting a flat frequency response out of a mic, for musical purposes, I can't imagine ever wanting that.
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Eric H.

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Re: Transformer vs. Transformerless Microphones !??!
« Reply #28 on: January 06, 2011, 01:55:33 pm »

dbock wrote on Wed, 05 January 2011 19:22

holding costs irrelevant, I'm going to violate current religious doctrine and state that there actually ARE applications, at least in music, where a transformerless microphone yields superior results to transformer coupled mics.

As a mic manufacturer known for his tube/transformer old school mics, I say hats off to you, as this statement is a testimony of your professional integrity and honesty. Not so common these days.

I also agree with you that sometime, a X-formerless mic is preferable. But I want to ask : what are those applications to you?
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eric harizanos

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Re: Transformer vs. Transformerless Microphones !??!
« Reply #29 on: January 06, 2011, 04:10:43 pm »

Wireline wrote on Fri, 31 December 2010 10:24

I've never done this, but what would stop someone from putting a 600:600 transformer on the audio legs of the output, leaving the phantom power line untouched?

I've seen plenty of examples in which people wired in some sort of  1:1 transformers into their mixbuss for ITB projects with what they describe as noticeable success...

Jes asking



Any thoughts on this?
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Philip
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