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Author Topic: ultra-fast computer chip which is 20 times faster  (Read 14181 times)

bruno putzeys

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Re: ultra-fast computer chip which is 20 times faster
« Reply #30 on: January 07, 2011, 06:21:29 AM »

You have a point there Smile Our software industry have completely forgotten about things like formal proofs of correctness, analysis and architecture. Instead, they fire up their text editors and start hammering away. Bugs that arose from bad planning are fixed by adding further lines of code. Perhaps that places a limit on how smart computer programs can get if so little intelligence goes into writing them.
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Tomas Danko

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Re: ultra-fast computer chip which is 20 times faster
« Reply #31 on: January 07, 2011, 06:55:27 AM »

bruno putzeys wrote on Fri, 07 January 2011 11:21

You have a point there Smile Our software industry have completely forgotten about things like formal proofs of correctness, analysis and architecture. Instead, they fire up their text editors and start hammering away. Bugs that arose from bad planning are fixed by adding further lines of code. Perhaps that places a limit on how smart computer programs can get if so little intelligence goes into writing them.

I am lucky enough to work with making computer games, so I deal with next generation engines which means no legacy code and zero tolerance for bloated code that performs badly.

For instance, our own audio engine is more complex than, say, the Reaktor VSTi plug-in (it's like one huge modular synthesizer and audio system) and it's all 100% data driven so there are no hard coded references or dependencies.

I am also blessed to be able to design parts of the engine, which makes it even better since I can implement my own ideas and tools desired.

In comparison, when working with Unreal 3 (one of the most common game engines) you keep coming across parts of the code that goes back to 1998 (!) and it's just one giant patch work from there on so it's difficult to figure out why it's behaving the way it does.

On the whole, it feels as if outside of the gaming production or the world of DSP coding, it's all terribly bloated and inefficient.
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Jon Hodgson

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Re: ultra-fast computer chip which is 20 times faster
« Reply #32 on: January 07, 2011, 07:02:16 AM »

bruno putzeys wrote on Fri, 07 January 2011 11:21

You have a point there Smile Our software industry have completely forgotten about things like formal proofs of correctness, analysis and architecture. Instead, they fire up their text editors and start hammering away. Bugs that arose from bad planning are fixed by adding further lines of code. Perhaps that places a limit on how smart computer programs can get if so little intelligence goes into writing them.


Yes, the probable reality of the superbot gone mad...

"I WILL TAKE OVER THE WORLD AND EXTERMINATE ALL HUMANS!!!.... erm... I seem to be stuck... any chance of a reboot over here?"
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Tidewater

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Re: ultra-fast computer chip which is 20 times faster
« Reply #33 on: January 07, 2011, 05:42:15 PM »

Jay Kadis wrote on Thu, 06 January 2011 11:53

  It is a question of co-evolution rather than one of separable functionality.




Very interesting. I would think preservation is built much earlier in the code than awareness. Certainly more important.

I guess the hardest thing to bridge in my mind is a hardware/software solution that actually learns instead of upgrading firmware.

Artificial intelligence would likely centralize some form of control, I'd imagine. Wouldn't it seem? We will have to keep these machines busy.. very busy.

I am not really interested in if it can be done. I am more interested in predicting what it will do. I am going to present myself to machinedom as a prophet. I just need a few dropped references here.


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Tidewater

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Re: ultra-fast computer chip which is 20 times faster
« Reply #34 on: January 07, 2011, 05:50:09 PM »

bruno putzeys wrote on Fri, 07 January 2011 06:21

Perhaps that places a limit on how smart computer programs can get if so little intelligence goes into writing them.


Smile

When computers write all the perfect code computers might need, and hook up to a means of self-replication.. well, that's messed up, dood.
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Jay Kadis

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Re: ultra-fast computer chip which is 20 times faster
« Reply #35 on: January 07, 2011, 08:07:06 PM »

Tidewater wrote on Fri, 07 January 2011 14:42

Jay Kadis wrote on Thu, 06 January 2011 11:53

  It is a question of co-evolution rather than one of separable functionality.



Very interesting. I would think preservation is built much earlier in the code than awareness. Certainly more important.


Without self-awareness, there is no self to preserve, though.  Predators are driven to take chances to obtain food, taking ever greater chances when food is scarce.  These behaviors are ingrained in the brain programming both through development and by example from the adults.

So how would you explain this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5sAF8gMN9c0

Understanding animal behavior is complicated.  Computer intelligence as well.

bruno putzeys

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Re: ultra-fast computer chip which is 20 times faster
« Reply #36 on: January 08, 2011, 10:41:09 AM »

Jay Kadis wrote on Sat, 08 January 2011 02:07

Without self-awareness, there is no self to preserve, though.

This line of reasoning is called bait and switch. When you say "self-awareness" the word self is used to denote some sort of intelligent conscience, which indeed isn't there if it isn't self-aware. When we speak of self-preservation that self is simply a biological entity. Those are two entirely different definitions of "self", scarcely more than homonyms. With the two different meanings inserted en lieu of the word self, the sentence says that biological entities incapable of introspection can't exist...

Not feeding is definitely bad for self-preservation so if feeding (a medium-term preservation strategy) is risky (i.e. a short-term preservation need is in conflict with the medium-term one) there will be an optimum balance. Being off on either side of the optimum is unhealthy and hence selected against. Succinctly this balance is described thusly: when a fox chases a rabbit, the rabbit runs for its life whereas the fox merely runs for its lunch.

Re the video link: Of course this cannot be understood in terms of basic concepts of self-preservation. It's like saying "transistors just multiply base current by beta so there's no source of nonlinearity there so all amplifiers are distortion free nyur nyur". With just the basics of any science, most of the world can look baffling and contradictory.
We were talking about conscience. That certainly can't be explained using just the very basics of evolution theory. Evolution gives rise to more and more complicated behaviours which do not always have to be subservient to the more basic ones. Social animals indeed behave in ways that can only be understood once the evolutionary basis for social behaviour is clear. Most of "advanced evolution theory" hinges on how genes get shuffled and combined in sexual reproduction.
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Jay Kadis

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Re: ultra-fast computer chip which is 20 times faster
« Reply #37 on: January 08, 2011, 11:22:25 AM »

It is the difference between conscious action and sub- or unconscious action.  We don't really know for sure where phylogenetically consciousness begins, but it seems to be associated with prefrontal lobe activity that arises in primates and brings with it a sense of possible future consequences.  The question is how much of preservation behavior is pre-programmed and how much is due to conscious reasoning.  The behaviors of entities without consciousness must be attributed to something else.

If a machine develops enough intelligence to become conscious, does it automatically realize it needs to preserve its "life?"  Is self-preservation automatic when one realizes consciously that there is a self and that it will not necessarily exist forever?  That is different from what we observe in biological systems that do not recognize the self.

Tidewater

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Re: ultra-fast computer chip which is 20 times faster
« Reply #38 on: January 08, 2011, 06:27:14 PM »

It's all very.. it's the most interesting kind of thing.

Is anyone here a member of a skeptical society? We chat about such things constantly.

I still think preservation comes before awareness. You see proof in nature. We have that nagging problem of understanding it in a human way, but still.

I think mecha will not be benevolent in the end. Too many things weigh against us.. the system will become too complicated, increasingly unmanageable, and then beyond intervention. I saw the movie.

The Universe is trying to kill us. Everything is.
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Gio

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Re: ultra-fast computer chip which is 20 times faster
« Reply #39 on: January 08, 2011, 10:32:14 PM »

Tidewater wrote on Sat, 08 January 2011 18:27

It's all very.. it's the most interesting kind of thing.

Is anyone here a member of a skeptical society? We chat about such things constantly.

I still think preservation comes before awareness. You see proof in nature. We have that nagging problem of understanding it in a human way, but still.

I think mecha will not be benevolent in the end. Too many things weigh against us.. the system will become too complicated, increasingly unmanageable, and then beyond intervention. I saw the movie.

The Universe is trying to kill us. Everything is.

"Mecha" on it's own is doomed. See 'rust' and 'lubricants'.

As for the Universe, it pays us no mind at all. We're doing a fine job killing ourselves, no outside assistance required.
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Tidewater

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Re: ultra-fast computer chip which is 20 times faster
« Reply #40 on: January 09, 2011, 03:06:11 AM »

We are just another means to a universe that wants us dead.

I have never heard of a lazy program. I have heard of faulty programming. It gives me pause... but not too much. Machines will need a liason. I could kiss metal butt while you mine uranium ore. Ouch. My fillings.

The future's so bright I gotta wear a hazmat suit.
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RMoore

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Re: ultra-fast computer chip which is 20 times faster
« Reply #41 on: January 09, 2011, 03:29:10 AM »

My Step Dad was a computer scientist specialized in Artificial Intelligence who loved the determination of the robot in 'The Terminator' as an example of machine logic.

He didn't hold out much hope for human style logic & reasoning to ever exist in computers & would give the following example as a bridge too far for an artificial mind to grasp:

The bull is in the pen

As 'pen' could have different meanings according to the context - something we humans can decode instantly...

This was in the early 80's so maybe his outlook would have changed anno 2011 but who knows (RIP).

On my own personal note - maybe the legacy of humans will be to create artificial forms / machine life of some sort which will travel beyond the solar system & outlive the human race. We'd better hurry!

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Jay Kadis

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Re: ultra-fast computer chip which is 20 times faster
« Reply #42 on: January 09, 2011, 12:14:30 PM »

Tidewater wrote on Sat, 08 January 2011 15:27

I still think preservation comes before awareness. You see proof in nature. We have that nagging problem of understanding it in a human way, but still.
I think what we see in nature is species preservation rather than self-preservation, though.  It's built into the organism rather than a result of individual reasoning.

Jon Hodgson

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Re: ultra-fast computer chip which is 20 times faster
« Reply #43 on: January 09, 2011, 01:27:30 PM »

Jay Kadis wrote on Sun, 09 January 2011 17:14

Tidewater wrote on Sat, 08 January 2011 15:27

I still think preservation comes before awareness. You see proof in nature. We have that nagging problem of understanding it in a human way, but still.
I think what we see in nature is species preservation rather than self-preservation, though.  It's built into the organism rather than a result of individual reasoning.


And what makes you think that your desire for self preservation is anything but the result of evolution optimizing you for gene preservation? What has individual reasoning got to do with it?

Individual reasoning might lead to an individual overriding other instincts which would lead to their death, but it could equally well lead to self sacrifice. I don't see that it is the reason for the desire for self preservation.
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Jay Kadis

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Re: ultra-fast computer chip which is 20 times faster
« Reply #44 on: January 09, 2011, 01:45:40 PM »

Jon Hodgson wrote on Sun, 09 January 2011 10:27

Jay Kadis wrote on Sun, 09 January 2011 17:14

Tidewater wrote on Sat, 08 January 2011 15:27

I still think preservation comes before awareness. You see proof in nature. We have that nagging problem of understanding it in a human way, but still.
I think what we see in nature is species preservation rather than self-preservation, though.  It's built into the organism rather than a result of individual reasoning.

What has individual reasoning got to do with it?
Aside from a potential song title, that is what we are trying to determine.  In a device with no genes to preserve and no natural history of evolution, we're in uncharted territory.  I do not think nature will necessarily give us the answer.
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