Fran
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« Reply #37 on: December 25, 2010, 01:40:27 PM »
Since I've been invoked here: Yes, I do think we witnessed a customer revolt, but I don't think it was at all about the resolution of the audio. In my experience, this is a highly variable factor - most pros don't require what I require, and assume arrogantly that what they are willing to accept is sufficient for anyone. The logic falls apart right there. If better is possible but not necessary, where is the break point? If 48k PT is good enough, why isn't AAC or mp3? By choosing to identify oneself as professional, it becomes personally selected. To follow the logic of most pros I've met over the years, good-enough is defined by solipsism, not by an empirical set of standards founded in how music sounds when its not mediated electrically. We start out with one or two U47s to a wide track of tape, we end up with kazillion mics phase-canceling each other through a board that sounds like a digital synth squished to a micron's depth by 1 of 5 guys who are all battling with each other to sound the same. Who cares if its mp3? You expect the customer to be aroused enough by the end product to invest any emotion into that part of it? You want the customer to care, find one who does and give them something to care about, don't blame them. So - I think it was first about the pricing of pre-recorded CDs (brought into perspective by the availability of blank CDs at plummeting popular pricing), and secondarily the shit quality of the music and production. The message communicated to the core customer base of decades-long loyalty was, "You vill eat our scheiss and vill enjoy paying our schtock-holders for ze prifilege!" And on that happy note - Merry Chrimble, one and all. PS - 6 Sounds Humans Love Most http://www.care2.com/greenliving/6-sounds-humans-love-most.h tml
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"There IS no Coolometer." - Larry Janus
« Reply #38 on: December 25, 2010, 02:32:03 PM »
Dan,
I have a problem with some of this though. First, in 1955 the 45 single was around $1.00 which at 711.56% inflation from 1955 to 2010 is in the order $8.10 of today's dollars, so the price of singles has gone DOWN by 700%. Albums also have plummeted accordingly. So I don't really buy the concept that CDs are comparatively expensive and therefor the public feels justified to steal them.
Also, quality has never been an issue with the public at large. I had a radio with a 2" speakers in 1965 and a portable record player with 4" speakers in 1968. There have always been those who could afford to spend serious amounts of money on their interests, but they have never dominated any mass market, from entertainment to transportation.
The last thing is that if Lady Ga-Gag was the only artist being stolen, I might go along with the concept that modern tin foil thin music quality incites the public to punish record companies for poor quality. However, ALL music is being stolen.
I do believe that for an artist to survive today, they must develop a fan base that has sufficient emotional investment in them to want them to survive. But that is really just good business sense driven to extremes by the aberrant conditions we now face in the media business (I did NOT say the music business).
So I'm still hoping and praying for a return to some normalcy. I know I will be criticized by many for tilting at windmills, but I've seen a few fall lately.
Best regards, and Merry Christmas Dan!
Bill
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"Don't take it personally. But this shit is a science." J.J.Blair
“The Internet is only a means of communication,” he wrote. “It is not an amorphous extraterrestrial body with an entitlement to norms that run counter to the fundamental principles of human rights. There is nothing in the criminal or civil law which legalizes that which is otherwise illegal simply because the transaction takes place over the Internet.” Irish judge, Peter Charleton
« Reply #39 on: December 25, 2010, 02:47:54 PM »
Ho Ho ho, Bill!
Actually we're making mostly the same arguments, that what "we" think of as quality doesn't matter to the public.
We only disagree about the pricing of CDs. No one had reason to buy a blank 45, so there was no reference point. But CDs started out at more than double the price of LPs with the argument being made that once the CD was as ubiquitous the price would drop - it didn't, until it was blank. Then it plunged. Well reasoned or not, I saw plenty of resentment over 15 years about that.
The physical object was perceived as having the value, not the "IP". When the object was known to be cheap, it made the IP seem too expensive. A re-calculation of the money could have preserved relationships more realistically, but CEOs and, presumably, shareholders would have none of it - the CD Windfall was too seductive, even if it was an artificially animated corpse.
Of course, that would have left it to artists to make the move, giving up the little they historically got in order to not overprice their intellectual property.
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"There IS no Coolometer." - Larry Janus
« Reply #40 on: December 25, 2010, 03:01:36 PM »
| mgod wrote on Sat, 25 December 2010 14:47 |
Ho Ho ho, Bill!
Actually we're making mostly the same arguments, that what "we" think of as quality doesn't matter to the public.
We only disagree about the pricing of CDs. No one had reason to buy a blank 45, so there was no reference point. But CDs started out at more than double the price of LPs with the argument being made that once the CD was as ubiquitous the price would drop - it didn't, until it was blank. Then it plunged. Well reasoned or not, I saw plenty of resentment over 15 years about that.
The physical object was perceived as having the value, not the "IP". When the object was known to be cheap, it made the IP seem too expensive. A re-calculation of the money could have preserved relationships more realistically, but CEOs and, presumably, shareholders would have none of it - the CD Windfall was to seductive, even if it was an artificially animated corpse.
Of course, that would have left it to artists to make the move, giving up the little they historically got in order to not overprice their intellectual property.
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Dan, I would also add to your argument. The use of masters optimized for vinyl instead of the source producer mixes, made CDs, with their more linear high frequency response sound brittle and harsh, degraded the perception of their quality. The idea of having to replace your entire collection with harsh CDs did not sit well, when it was clear that the labels were not going to any great lengths to optimize the CD medium. In fact, the situation that Terry faces with ugly CD "remixes" made things even worse. So I'm not defending the majors on the handling of their back catalog. Bill
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"Don't take it personally. But this shit is a science." J.J.Blair
“The Internet is only a means of communication,” he wrote. “It is not an amorphous extraterrestrial body with an entitlement to norms that run counter to the fundamental principles of human rights. There is nothing in the criminal or civil law which legalizes that which is otherwise illegal simply because the transaction takes place over the Internet.” Irish judge, Peter Charleton
« Reply #41 on: December 25, 2010, 03:56:03 PM »
| mgod wrote on Sat, 25 December 2010 13:47 |
...CDs started out at more than double the price of LPs with the argument being made that once the CD was as ubiquitous the price would drop - it didn't, until it was blank...
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The reasons it didn't drop had little to do with the record labels. Retail never discounted CDs whereas vinyl was often sold for 1/3 off. This happened simply because stores discovered that they didn't need to lower prices in order to compete. It also happened at the very same time that a substantial increase in the statuatory songwriters' royalty rate came into effect.
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« Reply #42 on: December 25, 2010, 03:56:18 PM »
larry wrote:
" ... a chicken and egg scenario"
the answer to this riddle is, of course, that it was the egg
eggs were around WAY before chickens appeared on the scene...
as for majors, you reap what you sow (or is that: "you rip what you sew"?)
it was/is the world where "exploitation" is seen as a good thing, and profit margins are more important than people
wasn't it berry gordy, who said:
"i want to take the kids' lunch money..."
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« Reply #43 on: December 25, 2010, 04:36:02 PM »
| kats wrote on Sat, 25 December 2010 06:37 |
As an aside, after a couple of decades in our municipality cell phone use while driving has been banned. 20 years of habit broken in one week. All it took was a couple of $200 tickets and word to spread ( we all knew someone who got one within a week or two) and it was over.
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Good point Tony. The same thing happened here on the west coast when they introduced no talk driving laws... After a few weeks you just don't see it any more. A little enforcement goes a long ways!
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Rick Welin - Clark Drive Studios http://www.myspace.com/clarkdrivestudiosIve done stuff I'm not proud of.. and the stuff I am proud of is disgusting ~ Moe Sizlack "There is no crisis in energy, the crisis is in imagination" ~ Buckminster Fuller
« Reply #44 on: December 25, 2010, 05:49:08 PM »
A good physician doesn't necessarily give primacy to the preferences of the patient.
Not if he wants the patient's life and/or health to improve.
Therein lies the fallacy in invoking the preferences and predilections of the punters.
They may not know. They may not care. They may prefer bad to good. In no way does that make quality less important.
Falling back on the "it don't matter anyway" argument is a capitulation. Or at least an abdication.
As to price - if you draw a link between, say, the price of gasoline and the price of music, think of the rarity of one versus the ubiquity of the other.
Add to the the relative importance in the culture, and I figure a buck is too much for a song.
At least until someone somewhere finds away to actually increase the value of the music.
I frankly think it's a privilege to ponder such questions, especially between rounds of excellent baked goods and Julfest cheer.
Happy Merry.
JW
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one of both the most and least successful producers of ALL TIME!
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