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Author Topic: This whole "ITB" digital mixing thing is a sham.  (Read 12008 times)

breathe

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This whole "ITB" digital mixing thing is a sham.
« on: December 17, 2010, 12:40:11 am »

My mixing system (PTHD3 Accel with Apogee AD/DA16-x's and Rosetta 800 mixed analog) going through my current setup of JH-416A, with API, Drawmer, Distressor, and Manley channel compressors, with the Thermionic Culture Culture Vulture Mastering Anniversary Edition on bass and guitar duties, mixed through a Dramastic Obsidian bus compressor into a Crane Song HEDD192, I feel like I can melt face.

Nicholas

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Bubba#$%Kron

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Re: This whole "ITB" digital mixing thing is a sham.
« Reply #1 on: December 17, 2010, 06:03:52 am »

You are such a Rebel!!!! Wink
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"When we make music we don't do it in order to reach a certain point, such as the end of the composition. If that were the purpose of music then obviously the fastest players would be the best. Also, when we are dancing we are not aiming to arrive at a particular place on the floor as in a journey. When we dance, the journey itself is the point, as when we play music the playing itself is the point."  -Alan Watts

breathe

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Re: This whole "ITB" digital mixing thing is a sham.
« Reply #2 on: December 17, 2010, 10:13:19 am »

BTW, I'm totally not outright dissing the concept of plug-ins.  In my latest project, even with the pretty excellent collection of analog compressors I own, there are some things I can do with the Waves RVox and Renaissance compressors that I can't do with my hardware.  Also, the McDSP Filterbank is really excellent in my opinion, and makes up for the extremely minimal EQ on my JH-416.  Also, the Cube-Tec Spectral DeHiss plug-in really is the most effective and transparent denoising technology I've ever used.  One technique I've discovered is that if I record a guitar direct, I can use Spectral DeHiss to take out the inherent buzz/hum picked up by the guitar's pickups, and reamp the signal, and it sounds really excellent and natural.  While reamping guitar, I've also discovered that the Thermionic Culture Culture Vulture patched into the signal before it goes out to the amp can seriously make up for some limitations in a guitar amp.  In my studio right now my artist friend and I are using a friend's Vox AC15 reissue that doesn't have great crunch, but the TCVC really takes care of that and gives the amp sound a lot of girth as well, even in a non-distorting setting.

Nicholas



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mixwell

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Re: This whole "ITB" digital mixing thing is a sham.
« Reply #3 on: December 17, 2010, 11:06:14 am »

I don't think its a sham at all. Its just a tool towards a means to an end. I find it useful, personally. Like and Dislike? Different story. While I don't find it compares to using an analog console, or great analog summing, its a tool to call upon none the less.
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Jim Williams

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Re: This whole "ITB" digital mixing thing is a sham.
« Reply #4 on: December 17, 2010, 11:23:46 am »

The tools are not a sham, but most of the current results from using it are a shame.

I blame the messenger, not the message in this case. Just like parents are responsible for their spoiled bratty kids and their poor education results.

The tools don't make crappy sounding recordings, the operators do.
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Jim Williams
Audio Upgrades

Ryan Slowey

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Re: This whole "ITB" digital mixing thing is a sham.
« Reply #5 on: December 17, 2010, 12:32:21 pm »

Better call Tchad Blake and tell him he's doing it wrong.
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Ryan Slowey
Albany, NY

My music: http://maggotbrainny.bandcamp.com

bigbone

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Re: This whole "ITB" digital mixing thing is a sham.
« Reply #6 on: December 17, 2010, 12:44:30 pm »

Ryan Slowey wrote on Fri, 17 December 2010 12:32

Better call Tchad Blake and tell him he's doing it wrong.


Like he care what people think about him on the net..........


JN
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marcel

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Re: This whole "ITB" digital mixing thing is a sham.
« Reply #7 on: December 17, 2010, 04:27:43 pm »

Ryan Slowey wrote on Fri, 17 December 2010 09:32

Better call Tchad Blake and tell him he's doing it wrong.

Ross Hogarth would probably like to know, too...
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Best, Marcel

Ryan Massey

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Re: This whole "ITB" digital mixing thing is a sham.
« Reply #8 on: December 19, 2010, 02:48:23 am »

The OTB mix is just going to be ruined by DSD anyways.

Or IC's.

Or whatever gear is being shit on this week.  

Damnit man, just make some good music already and stop worrying about the gear!

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   =www.sharkbitestudios.com=

tom eaton

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Re: This whole "ITB" digital mixing thing is a sham.
« Reply #9 on: December 19, 2010, 10:27:48 am »

I have to sympathize with Nicholas to some degree.  There is a tangible thing that is lost when you record... always has been, seems like it always will be so.  If your intention as a recording engineer is to preserve as much of that initial magic as possible, it does become frustrating to feel that you have to work after the fact to make things resemble the magic that you heard before it went onto the recording medium.  I feel it, too.

The degree to which this fact keeps you from getting on with your day... well...it seems to impact some of us more than others.

I've done a bunch of headphone free sessions (bass (upright and electric), drums and a singing guitarist all in the big room) and I have to say that the FUN the folks have playing that way DOES translate, even if the technical recording process removes some of the fairy dust.

One suggestion I have, for better or worse, is to ALWAYS monitor through your multi-track converters (as in, don't listen to your preamps directly).  Far less depressing!

tom

 

Nizzle

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Re: This whole "ITB" digital mixing thing is a sham.
« Reply #10 on: December 19, 2010, 12:10:26 pm »

tom eaton wrote on Sun, 19 December 2010 07:27



I've done a bunch of headphone free sessions (bass (upright and electric), drums and a singing guitarist all in the big room) and I have to say that the FUN the folks have playing that way DOES translate, even if the technical recording process removes some of the fairy dust.

tom

 



I was back in Boston(Sommerville) last week, finishing up a record and was able to put together 2 late night "headphone free" sessions. It was such a joy to setup in a room with fantastic musicians and be able to react/ listen to one another in a non-technically enhanced way. Most importantly, we played to the room as opposed to playing to an artificial dynamic, created by a skewed monitor mix. The fruits of those sessions are being released next week through the charity organization "Target Cancer"( http://righttracktunes.org/ ).

Oh yeah - We recorded it on to an old Ptools mix rig with 888's. The music and magic survived, just fine  Smile

-t



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tom eaton

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Re: This whole "ITB" digital mixing thing is a sham.
« Reply #11 on: December 19, 2010, 01:34:31 pm »

Cool!

The point was... if you monitor the outputs of the preamps compared to the outputs of the d/a converters did you lose "something."  Not the feel of the players, or the vibe of the song... but still the answer always seems to be yes.

It's just a matter of accepting and getting beyond it (and then obsessing about it when the clients have gone home, secretly).

t

NelsonL

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Re: This whole "ITB" digital mixing thing is a sham.
« Reply #12 on: December 19, 2010, 02:27:21 pm »

Ryan Massey wrote on Sat, 18 December 2010 23:48

The OTB mix is just going to be ruined by DSD anyways.

Or IC's.

Or whatever gear is being shit on this week.  

Damnit man, just make some good music already and stop worrying about the gear!





Exactly.

(BTW, I was thinking of Sharkbite in reference to the patchbay labeling thread... never seen your method before, but it makes total sense.)

And to add to Tom's point, I think recording itself sets you up for disappointment--- that first impression of "THIS is the take!" never returns.
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kats

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Re: This whole "ITB" digital mixing thing is a sham.
« Reply #13 on: December 19, 2010, 03:33:11 pm »

Nizzle wrote on Sun, 19 December 2010 11:10

tom eaton wrote on Sun, 19 December 2010 07:27



I've done a bunch of headphone free sessions (bass (upright and electric), drums and a singing guitarist all in the big room) and I have to say that the FUN the folks have playing that way DOES translate, even if the technical recording process removes some of the fairy dust.

tom

 



I was back in Boston(Sommerville) last week, finishing up a record and was able to put together 2 late night "headphone free" sessions. It was such a joy to setup in a room with fantastic musicians and be able to react/ listen to one another in a non-technically enhanced way. Most importantly, we played to the room as opposed to playing to an artificial dynamic, created by a skewed monitor mix. The fruits of those sessions are being released next week through the charity organization "Target Cancer"( http://righttracktunes.org/ ).

Oh yeah - We recorded it on to an old Ptools mix rig with 888's. The music and magic survived, just fine  Smile

-t






I'm glad someone posted this. There's a certain threshold of decent sound that is important, but after that it is a bit over rated. The magic is in the performance, that is what we should be arguing for! That is (IMO) the thing we yearn for most but realize  the least.

I like the fancy gear just like everyone else,  but we should keep our perspective.
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Tony K.
http://empirerecording.ca

Entertainment is a bore, communication is where it's at! - Brian Jones 1967

tom eaton

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Re: This whole "ITB" digital mixing thing is a sham.
« Reply #14 on: December 19, 2010, 04:19:08 pm »

Tony,

Firstly, you never thanked me for naming your studio.  

http://recforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/m/337963/2571/?sr ch=empire#msg_337963

Secondly, weren't you just complaining about the "state of the art" in converters in another thread?  It's all part and parcel of the same thing... this IS a forum of engineers... we should be able to discuss both the general and the nuance of the process... what we want to hear as engineers can be different (and at times inconsequential) to what our clients need from us.  Most of us are in this biz because sound turns us on to some degree...when something sounds "right" or "real" (not necessarily the same thing at all) there's a satisfaction in the presentation...

I think we all understand that the presentation IS NOT the most important factor, but it is a part of the communicated art...and those of us who have decided to chase after this insane career tend to be inclined to seek something beyond "good enough."

t
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