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Author Topic: I have access to a REAL console, is it worth it??  (Read 8985 times)

Bubba#$%Kron

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I have access to a REAL console, is it worth it??
« on: December 08, 2010, 06:57:02 PM »

      So , my studio has everything in the world but a REAL console. I have high end tracking covered and then some.    A friend of a good friend who owns this other place gave me a very reasonable price quote (just for me), this guy has heard me sing at a party once and remembered me that way, was extremely kind enough to offer me this place for half of the Label price.  

 I'm doing 32 ch passive summing into Neve 1272/3124mb/emt140/studer a80/B&W/ sanded hardwood floors/Fantastic room treatment at my place(all in a business park where I illegally live).  I really could not afford to track at the other place, but something tells me to suck up my pride and go use the large desk for mixing.

I could sell some of my mixing stuff and get some mastering gear if I do. I would be doing some Clients stuff, but Mostly my own stuff at this studio. So:

1) How much better does a console sound than passive summing?? Do you believe you can get PRO results with passive summing?

2)  Is API good for mixing? Will mixing on an API destroy the sonic imprint of my neve tracks??

3)   Is there anything more to working a large console than routing the patch bay with all the song's tracks, then fader/eq choice, then effects send/return choice, then adjusting gain staging for desired mix bus level hitting??

4) Is this studio suitable for mixing?? http://www.bigfishrecording.com/

5) should I do it??  Is it worth it?

6)  How many songs can a savvy engineer mix in 3 days usually??

The thing is that even with this great deal, my rent for a month at my own place is what 3 days of studio time will be there.   I serioulsy could not sleep last night thinking about all this, so any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks, Bryan
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"When we make music we don't do it in order to reach a certain point, such as the end of the composition. If that were the purpose of music then obviously the fastest players would be the best. Also, when we are dancing we are not aiming to arrive at a particular place on the floor as in a journey. When we dance, the journey itself is the point, as when we play music the playing itself is the point."  -Alan Watts

Bubba#$%Kron

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Re: I have access to a REAL console, is it worth it??
« Reply #1 on: December 08, 2010, 07:22:21 PM »

Fuck I wish i could I just jump in a time machine right now, go back 10 years and save all my money and time, and just had rented a place like this originally!!!!!!  I'd be Thailand with 3 girlfriends and a pina colada right now!!!!!
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"When we make music we don't do it in order to reach a certain point, such as the end of the composition. If that were the purpose of music then obviously the fastest players would be the best. Also, when we are dancing we are not aiming to arrive at a particular place on the floor as in a journey. When we dance, the journey itself is the point, as when we play music the playing itself is the point."  -Alan Watts

Barry Hufker

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Re: I have access to a REAL console, is it worth it??
« Reply #2 on: December 08, 2010, 09:53:37 PM »

I may be giving you bad advice but here's the way I look at it.
What is his amazing room and console getting *him*?  Has he got more clients than he can hande?  Maybe so, but I'm guessing not.  What will his amazing room and console get you?  Will you sell thousands of discs more than you have been?  I'm guessing not.

It seems to me you have a pretty fine tracking set up.  If you think mixing at his place is going to get you some huge advantage, such as huge sales (and that's the main reason for using his place) then do it.  Otherwise don't worry about it.  You may have other things which are holding you back that you should "correct" first or take better advantage of.

A "real console" is certainly a boon but you and I both know The Beatles would have had massive hits even if they would have recorded with less than ideal gear (which you can argue they did).

I suggest you save your money and not worry about this magnificent space and "real console".  Figure out where success lies and follow that path.  Then you can worry about the rest.  A good mix is a good mix no matter where it was done.  But it was probably done by someone who is a good mixer.

Barry

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jonathan jetter

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Re: I have access to a REAL console, is it worth it??
« Reply #3 on: December 08, 2010, 10:25:12 PM »

1.  i think a good mixer can get "pro" results with ITB summing

2.  an API sounds like an API.  a Neve sounds like a Neve.  in my limited experience mixing on API consoles, they sound great.  but that is of course up to preference.

3.  mixing is mixing.  the same principles apply on a console as ITB.

4.  studio looks great. a hell of a lot nicer than some of the rooms i usually work out of.

5.  define "worth it."  depends on your goals.  on your current career status.  on the amount of disposable income you have.  

6.  i would prefer to mix one song per day but the small indie budgets i deal with generally mean i end up doing 2 per day.
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Bubba#$%Kron

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Re: I have access to a REAL console, is it worth it??
« Reply #4 on: December 08, 2010, 10:26:45 PM »

Good Advice!! Thanks for the response!!  You definitely make some good points!!



Barry Hufker wrote on Wed, 08 December 2010 18:53

I may be giving you bad advice but here's the way I look at it.
What is his amazing room and console getting *him*?  Has he got more clients than he can hande?  Maybe so, but I'm guessing not.  What will his amazing room and console get you?  Will you sell thousands of discs more than you have been?  I'm guessing not.

It seems to me you have a pretty fine tracking set up.  If you think mixing at his place is going to get you some huge advantage, such as huge sales (and that's the main reason for using his place) then do it.  Otherwise don't worry about it.  You may have other things which are holding you back that you should "correct" first or take better advantage of.

A "real console" is certainly a boon but you and I both know The Beatles would have had massive hits even if they would have recorded with less than ideal gear (which you can argue they did).

I suggest you save your money and not worry about this magnificent space and "real console".  Figure out where success lies and follow that path.  Then you can worry about the rest.  A good mix is a good mix no matter where it was done.  But it was probably done by someone who is a good mixer.

Barry



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"When we make music we don't do it in order to reach a certain point, such as the end of the composition. If that were the purpose of music then obviously the fastest players would be the best. Also, when we are dancing we are not aiming to arrive at a particular place on the floor as in a journey. When we dance, the journey itself is the point, as when we play music the playing itself is the point."  -Alan Watts

Bubba#$%Kron

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Re: I have access to a REAL console, is it worth it??
« Reply #5 on: December 08, 2010, 10:27:51 PM »

Thanks, Good points also!!!

jonathan jetter wrote on Wed, 08 December 2010 19:25

1.  i think a good mixer can get "pro" results with ITB summing

2.  an API sounds like an API.  a Neve sounds like a Neve.  in my limited experience mixing on API consoles, they sound great.  but that is of course up to preference.

3.  mixing is mixing.  the same principles apply on a console as ITB.

4.  studio looks great. a hell of a lot nicer than some of the rooms i usually work out of.

5.  define "worth it."  depends on your goals.  on your current career status.  on the amount of disposable income you have.  

6.  i would prefer to mix one song per day but the small indie budgets i deal with generally mean i end up doing 2 per day.

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"When we make music we don't do it in order to reach a certain point, such as the end of the composition. If that were the purpose of music then obviously the fastest players would be the best. Also, when we are dancing we are not aiming to arrive at a particular place on the floor as in a journey. When we dance, the journey itself is the point, as when we play music the playing itself is the point."  -Alan Watts

Bubba#$%Kron

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Re: I have access to a REAL console, is it worth it??
« Reply #6 on: December 08, 2010, 10:49:19 PM »

I guess the question really is, How much better is a Console gonna sound than a 32 channel passive summing unit (just resistors and db25's) ran into my smaller api mixer 3124m??  Anyone ever had a direct comparison before??  Is it gonna be night and day??

Thanks, Bryan
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"When we make music we don't do it in order to reach a certain point, such as the end of the composition. If that were the purpose of music then obviously the fastest players would be the best. Also, when we are dancing we are not aiming to arrive at a particular place on the floor as in a journey. When we dance, the journey itself is the point, as when we play music the playing itself is the point."  -Alan Watts

compasspnt

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Re: I have access to a REAL console, is it worth it??
« Reply #7 on: December 08, 2010, 11:00:31 PM »

How can there be two of you?
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Bubba#$%Kron

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Re: I have access to a REAL console, is it worth it??
« Reply #8 on: December 08, 2010, 11:03:06 PM »

I'm sorry, what??  did I do something wrong?  I'm just looking for some help.  You gotta start somewhere buddy, we cant' just be instant Big Dogs like you!!!  Ive worked my ass off too!!!
compasspnt wrote on Wed, 08 December 2010 20:00

How can there be two of you?


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"When we make music we don't do it in order to reach a certain point, such as the end of the composition. If that were the purpose of music then obviously the fastest players would be the best. Also, when we are dancing we are not aiming to arrive at a particular place on the floor as in a journey. When we dance, the journey itself is the point, as when we play music the playing itself is the point."  -Alan Watts

compasspnt

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Re: I have access to a REAL console, is it worth it??
« Reply #9 on: December 08, 2010, 11:09:26 PM »

BF looks nice.

But it depends far more on the mixer himself.

I have always said I would rather Bob Clearmountain mix my song on a Mackie than Joe Schmo on an SSL.
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Bubba#$%Kron

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Re: I have access to a REAL console, is it worth it??
« Reply #10 on: December 08, 2010, 11:17:13 PM »

Thanks Man, I love your work!!  You just might be surprised one day what some of these little punks are capable of.  I'm just stoked to be able to hang out with here with you guys!!Smile

compasspnt wrote on Wed, 08 December 2010 20:09

BF looks nice.

But it depends far more on the mixer himself.

I have always said I would rather Bob Clearmountain mix my song on a Mackie that Joe Schmo on an SSL.


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"When we make music we don't do it in order to reach a certain point, such as the end of the composition. If that were the purpose of music then obviously the fastest players would be the best. Also, when we are dancing we are not aiming to arrive at a particular place on the floor as in a journey. When we dance, the journey itself is the point, as when we play music the playing itself is the point."  -Alan Watts

marcel

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Re: I have access to a REAL console, is it worth it??
« Reply #11 on: December 09, 2010, 11:17:55 PM »

I'd like to track guitars in that place.
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Best, Marcel

0dbfs

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Re: I have access to a REAL console, is it worth it??
« Reply #12 on: December 10, 2010, 06:57:30 AM »

Will you be mixing on the API or someone else?

You could always do a mix there and at your own place and compare the results to see if it's worth it to you.

Best,
jonathan
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Jonathan Burtner
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amorris

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Re: I have access to a REAL console, is it worth it??
« Reply #13 on: December 10, 2010, 08:19:56 AM »

I miss the large console when Im TRACKING a full band. everything/anything is immediately available. if I need a reverb or what ever, I cant add it without stopping a take and getting a thump on EVERYTHING. (everyone take off your headphones while I add an EQ) WTF? there are workarounds, but I miss the console in those moments. especially when I don't know the band and halfway through, my template is all wrong.
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Wireline

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Re: I have access to a REAL console, is it worth it??
« Reply #14 on: December 10, 2010, 08:35:18 AM »

Against my better judgment, I offer the following questions for your consideration - honestly answering these (not here) will guide your ultimate decision.  These are also offered on the concept that once you get into a high end place like that once, you will do what you can to stay there.  Leaving a place like that is a mega-depressing event, a real emotional killer.

1) Can you afford it now?
2) Will your current clients be able to afford the cost increase to offset the added expense of having such a place while still allowing you to eat and live indoors?
3) What kind of competition do you have in your area, and what does your moving into that space offer that would cause future clients to abandon the competition and go to you?
4) Have you factored in the facilities and equipment maintenance costs, utilities, insurance, taxes (if applicable) and other 'costs of doing business' into your budgetary considerations?
5) Have you considered your financial situation when you go a month, maybe two, without a single penny of income?  Bills still must be paid, regardless.
6) Are your results/final products going to increase significantly enough to warrant the tremendous financial outlay involved?
7) Have you looked at/talked with other engineers/studio operators that have had decades more experience, platinum records, Grammy awards, and found out why they went under, and why you have something to offer different enough to keep you open while they went under?


I only offer these as seriously soul searching questions to answer before you even consider ANY place, much less a place of that caliber.  It is of course your decision, but keep in mind nothing is worse than having to sell your gear for pennies on the dollar just to pay rent on a low end apartment, as you lost pretty much everything due to not being 100% prepared and armed with as much knowledge as possible going in

Just an opinion...based on experience from a LOOOOONNGGG time ago
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Ken Morgan
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MagnetoSound

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Re: I have access to a REAL console, is it worth it??
« Reply #15 on: December 10, 2010, 09:00:36 AM »

Bubba Kron wrote on Wed, 08 December 2010 23:57

      2)  Is API good for mixing? Will mixing on an API destroy the sonic imprint of my neve tracks??




Two entirely separate questions.


Yes,

and No.


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Jim Williams

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Re: I have access to a REAL console, is it worth it??
« Reply #16 on: December 10, 2010, 12:00:21 PM »

Big Fish is Paul Waroff's place down in Olivinhein. It's a nice place on a large rural lot with lot's of ambiance. It's also a tony zone, multi-million dollar homes in there. No dangers of urban mixing there, only the chickens will wake you up.

He does have a large 48 channel API, nicely maintained. The group assign modules were custom one-off Paul Wolff designed with crappy select switches that no longer work. I'm attempting to re manufacture replacements for them.

He has EMT plates, but no Bricasti, I might loan him mine to check out.

He has done most of the Blink 182 stuff there and plenty more. He knows what he's doing there. It's a rock mix room known for gluey mush rather than pristine reality which is my forte. You can obtain first rate rock mixes there, if you budget accordingly.

He also has a prototype 500 mic pre module of mine there right now with a class A opamp design, no coupling caps, no servos, Jensen transformer, real sweet and extremely quiet.

Say "hi" for me!
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Jim Williams
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CWHumphrey

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Re: I have access to a REAL console, is it worth it??
« Reply #17 on: December 10, 2010, 06:32:48 PM »

Go ahead and mix on a console.

Then, report back your impressions!

Cheers,
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Carter William Humphrey

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Spindrift

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Re: I have access to a REAL console, is it worth it??
« Reply #18 on: December 10, 2010, 07:29:43 PM »

Wireline's questions speak wisdom that should be heeded....
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Seb Riou

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Re: I have access to a REAL console, is it worth it??
« Reply #19 on: December 11, 2010, 02:57:10 AM »


I think the score is renting the studio for a mixdown, not take over the place.
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Wireline

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Re: I have access to a REAL console, is it worth it??
« Reply #20 on: December 11, 2010, 09:02:08 AM »

Seb Riou wrote on Sat, 11 December 2010 01:57


I think the score is renting the studio for a mixdown, not take over the place.


That being the case, disregard everything I said.  Have a great time, and please  tell us your findings.
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Ken Morgan
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Nick Sevilla

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Re: I have access to a REAL console, is it worth it??
« Reply #21 on: December 12, 2010, 01:42:28 AM »

Hi,

The way I see it, you have the following two options:

1.- Mix in your place.

2.- Mix at their place.

As to the results, well, who is going to mix?

If :

A.- You. Then it will not be as good as mixing on your known equipment.

B.- Someone else. Preferably someone who knows that control room like the back of their hand. Better than you mixing in an unknown room with an unknown console and equipment.


As an example, I mixed 8 songs ITB for a friend of mine, and then compared them to his mixes done on a classic Neve and tons of outboard gear.

His mixes : CACA. Mushy, smelly, fuzzy, CACA.

My mixes : Listenable. Not amazing, but certainly not CACA.

Cheers
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Bubba#$%Kron

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Re: I have access to a REAL console, is it worth it??
« Reply #22 on: December 12, 2010, 11:30:14 PM »

You guys rock!! Thanks for the responses!!  All good stuff!!!!
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"When we make music we don't do it in order to reach a certain point, such as the end of the composition. If that were the purpose of music then obviously the fastest players would be the best. Also, when we are dancing we are not aiming to arrive at a particular place on the floor as in a journey. When we dance, the journey itself is the point, as when we play music the playing itself is the point."  -Alan Watts
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