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Author Topic: DSD is the worst thing that ever happened to music.  (Read 17785 times)

breathe

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DSD is the worst thing that ever happened to music.
« on: December 07, 2010, 04:10:04 PM »

Because Brian Eno and Peter Gabriel had their whole catalogs transferred to that format, and all "remastered" CDs were remastered off of the DSD transfers.  And sound like shit.  Peter Gabriel is kinda tech savvy, but he's just a musician, so I can see some slimy Sony rep conning him into using DSD to archive his catalog, but Brian Eno, he should know what's up, and not have let DSD destroy his music for generations to come.

I hate the sound of DSD.  Sony can toss my salad.

Nicholas

p.s. I'm mostly pissed because I recently badly scratched my copy of Peter Cabriel's "So" on vinyl.  Now I have to find this shit on eBay and pay through the nose for a good copy.


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Bubba#$%Kron

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Re: DSD is the worst thing that ever happened to music.
« Reply #1 on: December 07, 2010, 06:33:11 PM »

The irony of the whole thing is that on B&w's website, Peter Gabriel is their face for the whole "society of sound" thingy.   I would definately call peter Gabriel more than Kinda Tech Savvy!!     You dont set the tone for an entire decade not knowing shit!!!     I saw him live a few years back, it was really good!!  I really wanted to see him sing with just a symphony on his last tour but could not afford it!!!





breathe wrote on Tue, 07 December 2010 13:10

Because Brian Eno and Peter Gabriel had their whole catalogs transferred to that format, and all "remastered" CDs were remastered off of the DSD transfers.  And sound like shit.  Peter Gabriel is kinda tech savvy, but he's just a musician, so I can see some slimy Sony rep conning him into using DSD to archive his catalog, but Brian Eno, he should know what's up, and not have let DSD destroy his music for generations to come.

I hate the sound of DSD.  Sony can toss my salad.

Nicholas

p.s. I'm mostly pissed because I recently badly scratched my copy of Peter Cabriel's "So" on vinyl.  Now I have to find this shit on eBay and pay through the nose for a good copy.




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"When we make music we don't do it in order to reach a certain point, such as the end of the composition. If that were the purpose of music then obviously the fastest players would be the best. Also, when we are dancing we are not aiming to arrive at a particular place on the floor as in a journey. When we dance, the journey itself is the point, as when we play music the playing itself is the point."  -Alan Watts

Tim Halligan

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Re: DSD is the worst thing that ever happened to music.
« Reply #2 on: December 07, 2010, 06:38:11 PM »

Terry Manning/Compasspnt


I mix to it.

I master from it.

There is no "conversion" as in the commonly known sense.

It is the best mixdown format I have ever used.

Here are a few other threads about the KORG DSD machines.

http://recforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/m/251449/6490/?sr ch=DSD#msg_251449

http://recforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/m/474431/6490/?sr ch=DSD#msg_474431

http://recforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/m/265053/6490/?sr ch=DSD#msg_265053

Their proprietary dff format is twice the quality of any other DSD.



Terry Manning/Compasspnt



The KORG is like mixing to the best-aligned perfect 1/2" or 1" 2 track you can imagine.

No A/D-DA conversion comes close.

They must not have done a great job (at least at first) promoting and marketing this product, but they sure spent the time and money developing it.




Perhaps you should spend some time with the format before you open your mouth and shoot yourself in the foot...again.


I have heard some DSD material and it is STUNNINGLY good.


Cheers,
Tim
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DarinK

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Re: DSD is the worst thing that ever happened to music.
« Reply #3 on: December 07, 2010, 07:48:29 PM »

breathe wrote on Tue, 07 December 2010 13:10

Because Brian Eno and Peter Gabriel had their whole catalogs transferred to that format, and all "remastered" CDs were remastered off of the DSD transfers.  And sound like shit.  Peter Gabriel is kinda tech savvy, but he's just a musician, so I can see some slimy Sony rep conning him into using DSD to archive his catalog, but Brian Eno, he should know what's up, and not have let DSD destroy his music for generations to come.

I hate the sound of DSD.  Sony can toss my salad.

Nicholas

p.s. I'm mostly pissed because I recently badly scratched my copy of Peter Cabriel's "So" on vinyl.  Now I have to find this shit on eBay and pay through the nose for a good copy.





It sounds to me like you're unhappy with the remastering job.  This may not have anything to do with dsd.  If Terry Manning claims that he can be fooled by the Korg DSD (which can operate at the double the quality of regular DSD) in an a/b test with the console output, then maybe you could at least try it out before bashing the format entirely.  Terry could certainly be wrong, but making a wild assumption about all DSD because of a couple remasters is going a bit overboard, perhaps.  Why not get a Korg and try it out at the highest sample rate?  I'd sincerely be curious as to your impressions in your own room, mixing your own stuff on it.

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Silvertone

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Re: DSD is the worst thing that ever happened to music.
« Reply #4 on: December 07, 2010, 08:00:02 PM »

Can't agree here.  Maybe the Eno and PG transfers were handled wrong but the Korg DSD recorder sounds just like the output of the console! It's amazing.  

I mixed a song for Tony Levin on his last record and I used a friends DSD recorder to mix to (and later, master off of it). After using it I just had to have one... it is the best digital mix down format I've ever heard.
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Bubba#$%Kron

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Re: DSD is the worst thing that ever happened to music.
« Reply #5 on: December 07, 2010, 08:01:55 PM »

whats the concept in Laymens terms?  SO the fact that it does not get printed to a hard drive, makes it sound vastly superior??  I dont get it!!

cheers
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"When we make music we don't do it in order to reach a certain point, such as the end of the composition. If that were the purpose of music then obviously the fastest players would be the best. Also, when we are dancing we are not aiming to arrive at a particular place on the floor as in a journey. When we dance, the journey itself is the point, as when we play music the playing itself is the point."  -Alan Watts

Jay Kadis

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Re: DSD is the worst thing that ever happened to music.
« Reply #6 on: December 07, 2010, 09:14:17 PM »

Bubba Kron wrote on Tue, 07 December 2010 17:01

whats the concept in Laymens terms?  SO the fact that it does not get printed to a hard drive, makes it sound vastly superior??  I dont get it!!

cheers
DSD stores only the difference between successive samples rather than the absolute value of each sample in multiple bits.  The difference is coded as a single bit (is it bigger or not?) but the encoder runs at 5.6 MHz instead of 48 kHz.  (Since the time between samples is very short, the signal cannot change very much between samples.)  This is actually part of the process used in multi-bit converters, but the standard A/D sums the one-bit values to form a multi-bit word.  The Audiogate software allows you to do that conversion if you want, but the raw data is stored on the hard drive as single bits at a very high sample rate.

It's a bit more complicated in practice, but that's the basic idea.

Bubba#$%Kron

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Re: DSD is the worst thing that ever happened to music.
« Reply #7 on: December 07, 2010, 09:55:03 PM »

thanks
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"When we make music we don't do it in order to reach a certain point, such as the end of the composition. If that were the purpose of music then obviously the fastest players would be the best. Also, when we are dancing we are not aiming to arrive at a particular place on the floor as in a journey. When we dance, the journey itself is the point, as when we play music the playing itself is the point."  -Alan Watts

breathe

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Re: DSD is the worst thing that ever happened to music.
« Reply #8 on: December 07, 2010, 11:21:28 PM »

What is the point???  It's already clear that most audio companies could care less about sound quality.  Is DSD just another fad or are the designers behind it actually committed to creating a better system?  There needs to be a "Come To Jesus" moment in audio equipment design.  Everyone knows where Avid stands.

Nicholas
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svs95

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Re: DSD is the worst thing that ever happened to music.
« Reply #9 on: December 08, 2010, 10:37:52 PM »

I think the products that are on offer right now are just kind of hanging out there to see which way the wind blows. Nobody's irrevocably committed to it. Run a flag up the pole and see who salutes.

What's the build quality of the MR2000S?
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johnR

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Re: DSD is the worst thing that ever happened to music.
« Reply #10 on: December 09, 2010, 10:43:40 AM »

breathe wrote on Tue, 07 December 2010 21:10


I hate the sound of DSD.


How do you know? In this case the "sound of DSD" is covered up by the sound of the re-mastering and subsequent conversion to CD.
Quote:

 
Is DSD just another fad


The basic concept of DSD is delta-sigma conversion without a decimation filter, an idea which has only been around since the 1950s.

Compared with the idea of cutting a groove in solid material to record sound, it is indeed a fad.
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mixwell

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Re: DSD is the worst thing that ever happened to music.
« Reply #11 on: December 09, 2010, 02:05:42 PM »

I'd bet my salary that bad musicians and bad engineers ruin music way before any technology steps into play.
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J.J. Blair

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Re: DSD is the worst thing that ever happened to music.
« Reply #12 on: December 09, 2010, 06:06:52 PM »

If you're listening to a CD, then you are not hearing the sound of DSD.  First off, DSD is pretty damned transparent.  That's not what you are going to hear.  
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breathe

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Re: DSD is the worst thing that ever happened to music.
« Reply #13 on: December 09, 2010, 08:45:10 PM »

I've heard demonstrations of DSD in Sony rooms at AES, off of the Sonoma system playing back through Meitner converters.  I never thought (Bud Ludwig's remastered) Rolling Stones "Satisfaction" could sound so still and lifeless.

Nicholas
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meverylame

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Re: DSD is the worst thing that ever happened to music.
« Reply #14 on: December 10, 2010, 12:44:07 AM »

What's this concept of the technology superseding the operator??? Just a theme I've noticed in all your posts. Is it not possible that maybe you just didn't like what Bob did on that particular occasion?? Or maybe someone (as with the beatles "remasters") just remixed and you didn't like that???? MAYBE the "mix" guy used myteks.. YEAH THATS IT!

Do you really believe that certain pieces of gear MUST (or must not) be in place for you like the sound of record? Because I GUARANTEE you even the most cursory glance of your audiophile records of choice, would surely punch a bunch of holes in your theories on the matter.
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wwittman

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Re: DSD is the worst thing that ever happened to music.
« Reply #15 on: December 10, 2010, 03:18:23 AM »

Oh
I thought the thread was going to be about Damned Steely Dan... Now that IS the worst thing that happened to music


Twisted Evil
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Tomas Danko

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Re: DSD is the worst thing that ever happened to music.
« Reply #16 on: December 10, 2010, 06:56:37 AM »

wwittman wrote on Fri, 10 December 2010 08:18

Oh
I thought the thread was going to be about Damned Steely Dan... Now that IS the worst thing that happened to music


Twisted Evil


Then it must be so, that Steely Dan on DSD is the ultimately worst thing that ever happened to music. Just throw in a bunch of extra IC's to please Italy, and you're golden.
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cgc

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Re: DSD is the worst thing that ever happened to music.
« Reply #17 on: December 11, 2010, 11:20:35 AM »

http://www.astralwerks.com/eno/reissue.html

ATR -> DSD with no EQ according to that page.  I love those albums, but they are not really super slick and polished sounding records compared to other releases of the day.  Then again that is far from the point of those records.
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Nick Sevilla

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Re: DSD is the worst thing that ever happened to music.
« Reply #18 on: December 12, 2010, 01:30:32 AM »

Silvertone wrote on Tue, 07 December 2010 17:00

Can't agree here.  Maybe the Eno and PG transfers were handled wrong but the Korg DSD recorder sounds just like the output of the console! It's amazing.  

I mixed a song for Tony Levin on his last record and I used a friends DSD recorder to mix to (and later, master off of it). After using it I just had to have one... it is the best digital mix down format I've ever heard.


No. No. And, no.

Breathe(r) is not talking at all about DSD. This is his "Red Herring".

He is complaining that one of his Peter Gabriel Vinyl discs got scratched by him, and that to replace it it will take money and effort on his part.

So, to feel better he has come here again to blabber on about something.

It is entertaining to me, in an illogical way.

Cheers
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Tim Halligan

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Re: DSD is the worst thing that ever happened to music.
« Reply #19 on: December 12, 2010, 06:05:32 AM »

Nick Sevilla wrote on Sun, 12 December 2010 14:30


It is entertaining to me, in an illogical way.





...says the man with Spock as his avatar.


Laughing


Cheers,
Tim
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MagnetoSound

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Re: DSD is the worst thing that ever happened to music.
« Reply #20 on: December 12, 2010, 06:55:38 AM »


Ah, Nick has been quite the logician this past day or so.


Great avatar.

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rjc

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Re: DSD is the worst thing that ever happened to music.
« Reply #21 on: December 12, 2010, 05:53:20 PM »

Tim Halligan wrote on Wed, 08 December 2010 10:38

...Perhaps you should spend some time with the format before you open your mouth and shoot yourself in the foot...again.

I have heard some DSD material and it is STUNNINGLY good.

Cheers,
Tim


Well put, Tim.

Having used the MR2000S as a mixdown deck for over a year, I'd have to say if a recording coming off DSD sounds "still and lifeless", it ain't likely to be the recording format that's the problem.  Shocked

mazoaudio

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Re: DSD is the worst thing that ever happened to music.
« Reply #22 on: December 13, 2010, 10:34:03 AM »

DSDSD.

I'm going have to say, that Gaucho in 5.1 on SACD is mind boggling.

If you care anything about music and production, I feel sorry for you if you can't appreciate that.  Life long lessons, man!
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Jim Williams

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Re: DSD is the worst thing that ever happened to music.
« Reply #23 on: December 13, 2010, 11:15:23 AM »

wwittman wrote on Fri, 10 December 2010 00:18

Oh
I thought the thread was going to be about Damned Steely Dan... Now that IS the worst thing that happened to music


Twisted Evil


What? You can't relate to west coast "wine and cheese" pop music?
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Nick Sevilla

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Re: DSD is the worst thing that ever happened to music.
« Reply #24 on: December 13, 2010, 11:18:51 AM »

MagnetoSound wrote on Sun, 12 December 2010 03:55


Ah, Nick has been quite the logician this past day or so.


Great avatar.




"Live Long And Prosper"...

I've been on a S.T. kick the last few days. I got the original series on DVD...
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Nick Sevilla

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Re: DSD is the worst thing that ever happened to music.
« Reply #25 on: December 13, 2010, 11:20:57 AM »

wwittman wrote on Fri, 10 December 2010 00:18

Oh
I thought the thread was going to be about Damned Steely Dan... Now that IS the worst thing that happened to music


Twisted Evil


Maybe. But one of their engineers was my mentor for a time. Brilliant engineer.

It is always good to know as many aspects of record making as possible.

In this way you can choose which one best fits the situation.

Logically.
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wwittman

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Re: DSD is the worst thing that ever happened to music.
« Reply #26 on: December 13, 2010, 05:40:54 PM »

Nick Sevilla wrote on Mon, 13 December 2010 11:20

wwittman wrote on Fri, 10 December 2010 00:18

Oh
I thought the thread was going to be about Damned Steely Dan... Now that IS the worst thing that happened to music


Twisted Evil


Maybe. But one of their engineers was my mentor for a time. Brilliant engineer.

It is always good to know as many aspects of record making as possible.

In this way you can choose which one best fits the situation.

Logically.



sigh.

as a primer on 'what not to do' I suppose...

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William Wittman
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ssltech

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Re: DSD is the worst thing that ever happened to music.
« Reply #27 on: December 13, 2010, 08:26:51 PM »

I know that I've encountered plenty of people who lump Steely Dan in with The Eagles in terms of the over-sanitized recording approach.

Which makes me wonder, William -since I know your opinion on Steely Dan- where would you stand on The Eagles?

(-On their windpipes, I'd imagine!)

Keef
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MDM (maxdimario) wrote on Fri, 16 November 2007 21:36

I have the feeling that I have more experience in my little finger than you do in your whole body about audio electronics..

Nick Sevilla

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Re: DSD is the worst thing that ever happened to music.
« Reply #28 on: December 13, 2010, 08:31:29 PM »

wwittman wrote on Mon, 13 December 2010 14:40

Nick Sevilla wrote on Mon, 13 December 2010 11:20

wwittman wrote on Fri, 10 December 2010 00:18

Oh
I thought the thread was going to be about Damned Steely Dan... Now that IS the worst thing that happened to music


Twisted Evil


Maybe. But one of their engineers was my mentor for a time. Brilliant engineer.

It is always good to know as many aspects of record making as possible.

In this way you can choose which one best fits the situation.

Logically.



sigh.

as a primer on 'what not to do' I suppose...




Not really... it does help to know some extremes on recording techniques.

My friend's favorite keyword was "FOCUS"... as in focus the sound.

As to me, I like and dislike the S.D. records. But probably for different reasons than you.

Logical
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Otitis Media

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Re: DSD is the worst thing that ever happened to music.
« Reply #29 on: December 13, 2010, 08:58:40 PM »

Not a huge SD or Eagles fan, but making things sound that way is *hard*. Not only that, getting musicians that good in my room - hasn't happened yet.

I know you guys have been a lot luckier in terms of working with quality musicians in better studios and focusing on quality results.

Now that I (ostensibly) know what I'm doing, everything I hear has a level of "shit, that's hard!" to it.

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Re: DSD is the worst thing that ever happened to music.
« Reply #30 on: December 14, 2010, 04:01:16 PM »

The Eagles had Joe Walsh____   that alone makes them 50 times the rock band of SD..

as far as DSD goes as if that is what ruins records!  I just picked up a cassette 8 track inspired by this theme on Fletcher's forum   It is gonna be fun making great sounding records with a $100 recorder while homeboy cries about his fancy shite in fantasyland not being good enough haha

Opinions are fine However when they are manipulated into such fits it is annoying pho sho

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Re: DSD is the worst thing that ever happened to music.
« Reply #32 on: December 16, 2010, 09:52:13 PM »

tom eaton wrote on Tue, 14 December 2010 13:14

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VAt7P0tECqg

Hmmm.

or...

 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wuafolD-ekE&feature=relat ed






This was great to see, the second one is especially cookin'..Wink Thanks for posting these!

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Re: DSD is the worst thing that ever happened to music.
« Reply #33 on: December 17, 2010, 02:53:02 AM »

Love this backing singers

They'd really macho up steely dan

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