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[breathe]

The C777 clock in my Apogees smokes the one in my Crane Song HEDD.  I also really didn't like the clock in my Burl B2 Bomber ADC, which I recently sold.  Good clocks seem really hard to come by.  Why is this?  In a recent thread I was complaining about my perception of serious jitter in recordings that had been sent to me to mix that were made with a Digidesign 002 and most people responded saying the affect of clocking was so subtle it couldn't possibly be causing the overt physical nausea I was experiencing listening to a band's recordings made with that unit.  Do you really feel clocking is that subtle?  It seems to me to be the single most important element of a digital recording.  IMO, the clock in the Apogee Rosetta 800 sounds awful, but that unit clocked to an AD/DA-16X sounds excellent.  For me, the aspect of digital sound that I believe is determined by clocking completely dictates the "linearity" of the sound experience.  When I listen to a recording with even minimal jitter, I feel like the sound isn't even there.  It sounds fake.  With my PTHD rig clocked to my Apogee DA-16X, playing back through my slowly being restored MCI JH-416A (hey, at least the tape monitors work now!) the sound completely pumps my nads.  I can engage with it without any hesitation or difficulty, and that is all I ask for in sound.

Nicholas

[johnR]

A better question might be why are there so few good clock recovery circuits? It takes imperfect clock recovery to allow differences between external clocks to be audible.

[johnR]

breathe wrote on Tue, 16 November 2010 18:15

When I listen to a recording with even minimal jitter, I feel like the sound isn't even there.  It sounds fake.

Nicholas, you are aware that zero jitter is impossible and all digital recordings have at least some?

[breathe]

I meant "minimal jitter" as in the sound of a pretty nice clock, but not as good as my current favorite, the C777.  The C777 is currently the closest I've experienced in my studio to perfection.  Weren't the Mercenary folks pimping a clock that was like atomic or something, costing ~ $6k?  I can't find it on their site now.

Nicholas

johnR wrote on Tue, 16 November 2010 10:43

breathe wrote on Tue, 16 November 2010 18:15   When I listen to a recording with even minimal jitter, I feel like the sound isn't even there.  It sounds fake. Nicholas, you are aware that zero jitter is impossible and all digital recordings have at least some?

[Fletcher]

In my experience there are many good clocks - the C777 is very good, and I quite like the clock in the Crane Song stuff even if you don't.  The clocking in the RADAR [iZ] is excellent... but units like the Grimm and the Antelope "Atomic Clock" are a cut above - everything is just "clearer" - why? I dunno - you might want to ask on the "tech" forum as Bruno is a VERY serious designer [the Grimm is one of his].

Peace

[Randyman...]

johnR wrote on Tue, 16 November 2010 12:30

A better question might be why are there so few good clock recovery circuits? It takes imperfect clock recovery to allow differences between external clocks to be audible.

Bingo!  

[bruno putzeys]

There would be more good clock boxes if more people knew how to make them but then they would also put these good oscillators inside their converters so no-one would notice that there were all these good clock boxes around... Conversely, since few people manage to put a good clock inside their converters, it's hardly a surprise that they don't do much better when they turn it into a standalone product.

What I really, really cannot understand therefore, is converter manufacturers who actively recommend using their own external clock to drive their own converter.

[compasspnt]

bruno putzeys wrote on Tue, 16 November 2010 17:01

What I really, really cannot understand therefore, is converter manufacturers who actively recommend using their own external clock to drive their own converter.

They can sell more boxes because people are gullible?

(Hi Bruno!)

[J.J. Blair]

I went to a friend's studio, who scores some great TV shows.  He has a AD16X, a DA16X AND a Big Ben.  I informed him that he wasted his money on the Big Ben.

[Randyman...]

Main ADC on Internal Clock; BNC Tee's and proper termination for the win...

[Lucas van der Mee]

J.J. Blair wrote on Tue, 16 November 2010 14:53

I went to a friend's studio, who scores some great TV shows.  He has a AD16X, a DA16X AND a Big Ben.  I informed him that he wasted his money on the Big Ben.

Hi JJ,

Not necessarily, the Big Ben has a number of features you don't get with the 16x's. Like Video Sync for instance. Given your friend's work for TV, it would make total sense for him to have a Big Ben as well.

[Fletcher]

bruno putzeys wrote on Tue, 16 November 2010 17:01

What I really, really cannot understand therefore, is converter manufacturers who actively recommend using their own external clock to drive their own converter.

Quick one over the bow there Bruno?  

As Lucas pointed out, there is the "video sync" capability, which for a large striation of the market is a necessary component - as well as expanded clock distribution capability.  I'm not defending anyone, just pointing out a bit of reality.

Further to that - there are other market considerations.  The vast majority of the converters sold are sold "on price" and not on "audio quality".  This is shifting a bit, but in the grand scheme of things not as much as those of us who "live audio" would like.  The absolute majority of "units sold" are pretty much crap - they work, just not as well as many of us [who are unfortunately still a great minority of users] would like.

When I worked in "sales" I can't ever remember getting anyone a "Big Ben" as an add on to an AD / DA-16x system unless they needed to do video sync or required larger clock distribution facilities.  At the same time, I recall many customers who were dissatisfied with their "silver & blue boxes" picking up Big Ben's to try and help those insipid [yet owner of the "high end" converter market] boxes.  Then there are other more "cost effective" units that were greatly improved by the addition of a "Big Ben" - those "cost effective" units became quite acceptable with that addition, and that [at least to me] was a good thing.

As I'm sure you are well aware it ain't cheap to build a great sounding clock -- the unfortunate reality is that price is an issue - and because its an issue there will always be stuff on the market that in my opinion shouldn't be on the market -- again, unfortunately, damn few ask my opinion on those sorts of things.

Peace.

[Jim Williams]

Generating a clean clock is one thing, delivering it is another.
I had discussions with Michal at Mytek about this. He was able to generate a very clean clock internally at about 10 ps. Once that was run down 3 inches of FR-4 PCB trace it went up to 100 ps.

Run a clean clock down RG-6 via BNC and that jitter goes way up. Therefore you do need clocking regeneration at the destination.

Master clocks are designs for synchronization. They lock the system to one timing source. If digital devices are run stand alone, the internal clock is nearly always superior to an external feed.

[Bubba#$%Kron]

Does brand of BNC cable matter??    I'm using Hosa, I figured it was like a AES wire where its just info not signal where high priced wires would not matter.    Should I be using something better??

Thanks, Bryan

Jim Williams wrote on Wed, 17 November 2010 07:42

Generating a clean clock is one thing, delivering it is another. I had discussions with Michal at Mytek about this. He was able to generate a very clean clock internally at about 10 ps. Once that was run down 3 inches of FR-4 PCB trace it went up to 100 ps. Run a clean clock down RG-6 via BNC and that jitter goes way up. Therefore you do need clocking regeneration at the destination. Master clocks are designs for synchronization. They lock the system to one timing source. If digital devices are run stand alone, the internal clock is nearly always superior to an external feed.

[Nick Sevilla]

Why are there so few good clocks?

Sorry mate, my Omega Speedmaster is working just fine over here... has been since 1986.

Cheers