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Author Topic: How do you make things sound BIG???  (Read 15579 times)

gtoledo3

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Re: How do you make things sound BIG???
« Reply #15 on: August 23, 2004, 11:31:47 PM »

I agree with all of the comments about sparseness, and arrangement...

But another important aspect is deciding what frequency range each instrument needs to inhabit. Decide which instruments can be small without bothering you....CONTRAST is a major part of it.

For example, think of Rock And Roll, by Led Zeppelin.... each instrument really has it's own "range" without stepping on the others. That very thin, wiry sounding lead only serves to make the drums, bass, and rythm guitar sound more massive.

Nine Inch Nails was a good example of that too... the distorted, thin, bandpassed vocs, make everything else seem much bigger.
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brandondrury

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Re: How do you make things sound BIG???
« Reply #16 on: August 24, 2004, 12:04:30 AM »

Quote:

Big sound= Great arrangement, a tracking engineer who know's what he's doing, a mixer who know's what he's doing,


Well, damn it!!!  I was hoping I could just turn everything to eleven or something and it would sound big.

All points are well noted.  I guess I'm just gonna have to keep hammering it in the mixing room.

I learned the gain thing a long time ago when it comes to electric guitars.  As my room improves, I'm more willing to experiment with more distant micing.

Brandon

Kendrix

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Re: How do you make things sound BIG???
« Reply #17 on: August 24, 2004, 09:52:28 AM »

I totally agree with the comments about arrangements.  For an individual instrument to sound big it needs lots of sonic space to fill.

However, another type of bigness is the total wall of sound type of thing.  Even with this- maximizing the "bigness" requires some space be opened up before filling it with the wall of sound.

I was just discussing how Entwistle's bass sound was so big on all those Who records.  Hey- there are only three instruments on most tracks- leaving allot of space/bandwidth for Johns mid-range laden bass tones to fill.

I also find my neve-like pre helps do this for rock vocals- lots of beef on the bottom end without woofiness.

 
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Ken Favata

Gideon

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Re: How do you make things sound BIG???
« Reply #18 on: August 25, 2004, 02:35:58 AM »

brandondrury wrote on Mon, 23 August 2004 00:24

 I always double electric guitar and sometimes go crazy with it just for fun.  



There's your answer right there: More Guitar tracks. Talk to any guitarist these days and he'll tell you:

"We need more guitar tracks."

This is probably one of the mo(i)st significant reasons why recordings today sound so much better than the musty old recordings of yesteryear. You simply cannot have enough guitar tracks. Let me repeat this: No matter how many guitar tracks you have recorded you need more. Much more (o.k. many more). Each guitar out, after passing through an array of effects pedals and, of course, a compression pedal, should be mutled and fed to at least four amplifiers and each one of these should be close mic'ed with at least two SM57's, two ribbon mic's, (Royer 121's, for instance) a tube mic (such as a U67) and a solid-state condenser (e.g.AKG414). That's ten microphones for each one of the four amps so a total of forty tracks. These should be combined with a pair of SDC room mic's (Schoeps, DPA, or Neumann K84's) and a stereo tube condenser mic (e.g. AKG C24, Manley Stereo Gold Reference, etc.).  A good trick with a stereo mic is to place the two capsules 0 degrees apart, reverse the phase on one of the preamps and combine the line outs with a Y-cable. Note that you may not hear any actual "audio" on this track but it is adding essential "vibe" to the overall guitar tone. You should also attach a pair of PZM mic's to the wall (to avoid reflections) and mix these in as well. Now you have forty-five tracks, (because two were combined with that Y-cable) which everybody knows isn't enough to get that "big" modern guitar tone.
 
 Absolutely every guitar part--and you'll need at least ten or twelve guitar parts in every section of the song--simply must be doubled or even trebled. So, assuming that your guitarist is lazy any only doubled the part, you now have ninety raw tracks but you'll still need to thicken up that guitar tone for a truly "big" sound. First mult all the tracks five times (for a total of 450 tracks), send the first ninety tracks through an Eventide and lower the pitch by ten cents, then pan the return hard left. Next take the return from the second group of ninety and run them through an Eventide with a boost of ten cents and pan the return hard right. The third group should be run through an Eventide up an octave, the fourth group down an octave, and the fifth group should be unprocessed. These last three groups should be panned dead center.

 Now reamp these 450 tracks with a different set of four amplifiers and record these. Mult these 20,250 tracks and reamp the first set of 20,250 through a Pod and the second set of 20,250 through a Sansamp and blend in these 40,500 tracks in with the first 20,700 to taste. Next, you'll need effects, flanging, chorusing, slap echo, tap echo, convolution reverb, outboard reverb, etc., etc. As a start, each one of your 61,200 guitar tracks should be processed with plugins (e.g. Ampfarm) and then sent to a plate, a room, a hall and a church reverb all with stereo returns for a total of 489, 600 reverb returns. If you want a really "big" sound, you may want to put a plug-in reverb such as Altoverb on the effects return from your outboard reverbs, or mult these returns and put the plugin on the first set and leave if off the second set and then blend to taste. A neat trick is to remember that many reverb algorithms will slightly lower the pitch of the reverb tails; Autotune should clear this right up.

Next, remember that guitar tracks need compression--lots of compression--even if you tracked with a compression pedal. The best way to compress your guitar tracks is to mult them all (including the effects return) compress the first set, leave the second set uncompressed and blend to taste. Don't be afraid to chain compressors together to get that "modern" sound. You'll need, at minimum, an 1176, an LA2A, a Distessor an Alan Smart, a Fairchild 670 (or 660) an SSL and a Waves L1, L2, or L3 Plugin compressor. Go ahead and run them all in series with a maximum ratio on each. Next run each track (you should have at least 1,101,600 at this point) through an EQ with a 10db boost around 500Hz and a maximum Q.

Congratulations! You have now successfully recorded one basic electric guitar part. (Unless you want to double the track in thirds, then you will need to repeat the process) You will need at least nine or ten more for an arrangement that really "fills out" the song. After this you should double all the guitar parts with a slide guitar, a pedal steel, a bass VI, a dobro, a tiple, a banjo, and a ukulele.

Finally, I recommend summing out-of-the-box. First, go ahead and bounce your tracks down to a stereo (or 5.1 or 7.1) bus ITB, run this through an L(X)  plugin, out to an SSL and back into the DAW. Now mult the bus and reverse the phase on all the tracks of the second bus; run these tracks out of the DAW along with their phase reversed "twin" and combine them with an (OTB) Y-cable and back into the DAW. Presto: A guaranteed modern, "big" sound.

Of course, you could always try the old fashioned method of starting with one great player--playing a great instrument--into one great amp recorded with one well-placed mic into a great preamp. But then you run the risk of a getting a "small" guitar tone like the ones recorded by...well...

Charlie Christian
Dave Davies
Jimmy Hendrix
Wes Montgomery
Johnny Smith
Terje Rypdal
Angus Young
etc....


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Fibes

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Re: How do you make things sound BIG???
« Reply #19 on: August 25, 2004, 09:38:39 AM »

Raising the bar and adding value.
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polyt

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Re: How do you make things sound BIG???
« Reply #20 on: August 25, 2004, 05:14:15 PM »

Hmm,

I'll have to try that when I get home...

rvdsm

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Re: How do you make things sound BIG???
« Reply #21 on: August 25, 2004, 05:28:41 PM »

Nykalharpa wrote on Wed, 25 August 2004 01:35

brandondrury wrote on Mon, 23 August 2004 00:24

 I always double electric guitar and sometimes go crazy with it just for fun.  



There's your answer right there: More Guitar tracks. Talk to any guitarist these days and he'll tell you:

"We need more guitar tracks."

....yadda...yadda...yadda....(you know what you wrote.)


You've got to be really, really bitter about doubling guitar tracks to spend the time it took to post that diatribe, yet I applaud thee for doing so.
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brandondrury

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Re: How do you make things sound BIG???
« Reply #22 on: August 25, 2004, 11:38:53 PM »

I get the point.

For certain applications, the doubled sound is required and you would be doing your clients a disservice for not giving it to them.  No one ever bitches that Master of Puppets has doubled guitar tracks.  

If you go back to my original post on this topic, the point was to figure out how to get a big sound with just one mic and set relatively dry.  

My point was I have solid guitar players who play through great amps, in a mostly dead room, through quality mics, and into Neve preamps, but I would not usually call the tone that I'm getting big.

Just saying Eddie Van Halen, Marshall, SM 57, and Neve won't make the sound big.

I was looking for certain trends that seam to exist in various "big" guitar sounds.  Maybe there are a few tricks that work. Maybe cranking the mids to 10 will make my ear perceive great bigness.

The issue I'm having is more snare drum related.  I can't seam to get the snare to sound big and thick.  Instead, it's usually relatively weak.  This is usually in mixes with guitars taking up a lot of room.  

Brandon

ted nightshade

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Re: How do you make things sound BIG???
« Reply #23 on: August 26, 2004, 12:02:46 AM »

Sounds like everything is fighting for the same bit of real estate- vox, snare, guitars. Any one could probably sound huge if tracked right, but all at once is a crazy balancing act... leaving a hole for it in the arrangement helps so much, I depend on it.

Mic placement might get you some size if you can find the spot. Seriously less tracks and less guitars is gonna be biggest. A lot of time tracks are doubled because they can't get one guitar to sound good enough.
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Fibes

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Re: How do you make things sound BIG???
« Reply #24 on: August 26, 2004, 01:08:45 AM »

Try ducking one or more of the guitars off the snare. It's one way you can have both.
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Cerumen

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Re: How do you make things sound BIG???
« Reply #25 on: August 26, 2004, 03:12:48 AM »

brandondrury wrote on Wed, 25 August 2004 20:38



My point was I have solid guitar players who play through great amps, in a mostly dead room, through quality mics, and into Neve preamps, but I would not usually call the tone that I'm getting big.

Just saying Eddie Van Halen, Marshall, SM 57, and Neve won't make the sound big.

I was looking for certain trends that seam to exist in various "big" guitar sounds.  Maybe there are a few tricks that work. Maybe cranking the mids to 10 will make my ear perceive great bigness.

The issue I'm having is more snare drum related.  I can't seam to get the snare to sound big and thick.  Instead, it's usually relatively weak.  This is usually in mixes with guitars taking up a lot of room.  

Brandon




so are you looking for a snare sound or a guitar sound?
what album do you want it to sound like?
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Scott Helmke (Scodiddly)

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Re: How do you make things sound BIG???
« Reply #26 on: August 26, 2004, 08:45:20 AM »

Somewhere around here I've got an old Guitar Player interview with Keith Richards - we're talking late 70's here.  His whole theory for recording was that you took little things and close-miked them for a big sound.  They were using tiny practice drum kits, acoustic guitars through cassette recorders, all kinds of goofy things.
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bloodstone

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Re: How do you make things sound BIG???
« Reply #27 on: August 26, 2004, 02:32:45 PM »

I really can't agree that more guitar tracks will make it sound bigger.  In fact, I think most times it makes things sound smaller.  I've recently done a series of recordings with doubled tripled & quadrupled guitar tracks (not copy & paste, actual multiple performances).  All I got out of it was a neat "chorusey" effect.  Thicker or fuller, maybe, but not bigger.
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lincolnhwyguitarman

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Re: How do you make things sound BIG???
« Reply #28 on: August 26, 2004, 03:23:24 PM »

Nykalharpa wrote on Wed, 25 August 2004 07:35




There's your answer right there: More Guitar tracks. Talk to any guitarist these days and he'll tell you:

"We need more guitar tracks."

This is probably one of the mo(i)st significant reasons why recordings today sound so much better than the musty old recordings of yesteryear. You simply cannot have enough guitar tracks. Let me repeat this: No matter how many guitar tracks you have recorded you need more. Much more (o.k. many more). Each guitar out, after passing through an array of effects pedals and, of course, a compression pedal, should be mutled and fed to at least four amplifiers and each one of these should be close mic'ed with at least two SM57's, two ribbon mic's, (Royer 121's, for instance...





But what do I do if I don't have a Royer 121?
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Bob Olhsson

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Re: How do you make things sound BIG???
« Reply #29 on: August 26, 2004, 03:49:05 PM »

Scott Helmke wrote on Thu, 26 August 2004 07:45

...His whole theory for recording was that you took little things and close-miked them for a big sound.

Shhhhhhh!!!
Wink
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