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[pergatory]

Hi J, there's a sizable debate amongst the pac nw production community.  I'm hoping you can chime in with some advise.  

For years now, a producer up here has had a strangle hold on the music scene.  The guy gets a vast majority of all decent budgets, and his work is questionable.  You know who I'm talking about.  This guy's top of the heap success is pretty mystifying.  

The problem is, it doesn't seem that bands care much about the final product of their stuff beyond that it's passable.  They value the name drop at the bar more than the possibility of a great sounding record.  At this point, this guy is pretty much to the NW what Albini is to Chicago (although albini deserves the cred).  For what he lacks in talent, he definitely makes up for in nightly schmoozing at the local hot spots.

Would you stay in town and fight it out in a pretty negative atmosphere - subjecting yourself to a ridiculous amount of schmoozing just to pay rent, or relocate and ditch 90% of the small client list you've fought for over the years?

I'm sure this situation exists in many places.  What would you do?

[electrical]

This may sound silly, but I would suggest that your enemy is your friend.

Since I built a studio and went to full-time recording, the number of studios and the amount of work being done in Chicago has multiplied by at least a factor of ten. This was a cultural/technical trend, not related to me, but it created a "competition" in Chicago that hadn't existed before.

I believe that having an engineer whose name is known in your midst makes all the other engineers in the area better (traditional competition) and accentuates those areas where the "other" engineers have legitimate advantages (practical or aesthetic) over the "big name."

I know that there are studios in Chicago that emulate Electrical Audio, but there are also those that distinguish themselves by being proudly different, and they are succeeding precisely because they can point in our direction and say, "we do this particular thing better than they do."

It is a mistake of ego to assume that all gigs are available to everybody, or that people choose an engineer based on his "name." The "name" (meaning reputation) comes from past work, and an established engineer is always going to have a longer resume (and one the client base will be more familiar with), than a newer engineer. If there is no reason for a client to come to you, he will make his choice based on what he knows, not what you "know" (that you somehow deserve the gig).

I am sure I have benefitted from this, but I believe the bulk of this selection is actually enlightened, not capricious. Nobody wants to spend time and money on something that is important to him for stupid reasons, and I don't believe it happens that often.

In short, there is probably more work being done in the NW because of this guy, and that helps you. You are different from him, and that helps you, because you can enlighten people to the difference and let them make an informed choice. Once you do establish yourself, you will be in his company, rather than in competition with him, and that association will help you.

I'm not particularly curious about the name of "the guy" in your story, but I can think of two candidates, and they have both done work I admire. That might be the impression some of your prospective clients have as well. If you refrain from thinking so little of their perceptive abilities, you won't be as frustrated, and you will appreciate more the clients you do get.

[pergatory]

Thanks for your reply - I enjoy your writing and your work...

This is exactly the crux of the issue.  Doing what I do on the virtual island of the NW, it takes a certain amount of ego to push through year in, year out.  Always holding a belief that one day I can acheive a small bit of stability.  Of course my judgment of others' work can be construed as general to a flaw, but also a necessary part of what I do (I believe Fugazi is artistically better than Britney Spears).    

My question is meant to try to clear the haze of 10 years of swimming upstream trying to get established.  Where does ego stop, and reality start.  I'm sure others have been through this and have worked their way into a better situation - ride the wave and wait for budgets to hopefully go up, or look for something else.  At this point I seriously don't think my path is working, but the vast unknown is a bit harder to swallow at thirty something.  This is the question that comes to me and others in the area every time we lose another gig to the man.

Your point - it depends on how you look at it - is taken and appreciated, but there has to be a time that it just gets stupid to stay in town, also.

     

[j.hall]

my response is going to take some effort, so stick with me while i copy and paste and try to make sense of who typed what and what i'd like to add to it.

pergatory wrote:

Quote:

Would you stay in town and fight it out in a pretty negative atmosphere - subjecting yourself to a ridiculous amount of schmoozing just to pay rent, or relocate and ditch 90% of the small client list you've fought for over the years?

you are asking this of a free-lancer that lives in KANSAS CITY.
hahahahaha

some body told me one time, "i never give opinions, because opinions are advice, and advice.......is personal"

i'll give you some of my personal truths, and soe opinions, but i will avoid straight out advice because i've never walked a step in your reality.

electrical wrote:

Quote:

I believe that having an engineer whose name is known in your midst makes all the other engineers in the area better (traditional competition) and accentuates those areas where the "other" engineers have legitimate advantages (practical or aesthetic) over the "big name."

(i'll name names because there is simply nothing wrong with doing that)
my reality.....Ed Rose built this area up in the recording side of things.  he does MANY local artists and has since moved on to doing many regional and national acts.  you can like his work or not.....that simply doesn't matter.  what does matter is that he raised the bar.  if you can't produce "x" product, then you can't justifiably call yourself "pro" in this town.

i was pissed that so many people went to him blindly when i first started free-lancing here, but steve is right.  it's really a good thing.  and Ed has done nothing to me, he hasn't taken food off my table, nor has he done anything malicious against other engineers here.

pergatory wrote:

Quote:

My question is meant to try to clear the haze of 10 years of swimming upstream trying to get established.

only you can clear the haze.

i have a friend that spent 25 years scrapping and fighting for every gig he got.  this guy is very talented, very well versed in recording, can schmooze with the best of em.......only recently has he started booking gigs that he probably should have years ago.  10 years is nothing man, it's a number, it's just time.

i've been clawing and scrapping for 7 years.  where has it gotten me?  you don't see me on the cover of tape op......i'm not even in the pages.  do you own a single record i have made?  most likely, you don't.  i'll keep clawing and scrapping for another 7 if that's what it takes.....man i'll go another 30.

i tried to quit once.  i couldn't, it's in my blood, it's part of me, i can't walk away.  i've tried to move.......i just got pulled right back here.

pergatory wrote:

Quote:

subjecting yourself to a ridiculous amount of schmoozing just to pay rent.....

YES....because that is our job.....the phone doesn't just ring unless you are andy wallace.....and he spent years making his phone ring.

i spend more time talking about recording then i spend recording.......i've bought more people beers and never seen business from them then i care to remember.  this is what i do, it is simply part of running a business.  i don't expect anyone to care about my business as much as i do.  every one around here knows me, do they hire me......no.....but let's move one step at a time.

electrical wrote:

Quote:

I know that there are studios in Chicago that emulate Electrical Audio, but there are also those that distinguish themselves by being proudly different, and they are succeeding precisely because they can point in our direction and say, "we do this particular thing better than they do."

yet another personal story.

i spent the better part of two years beating my head against the wall......"why can't i get that big "mojaor label" sound"

i got so frustrated.......it was endless......

i woke up one morning and realized, i simply don't hear music like that.  i can't force myself to mix a record in a manner that i can't even hear.  i have to embrace my unique-ness, and just work with the i've got.......MY ears, MY brain......

after i did that, i started getting asked to mix other projects.....i was astonished, "what, just mix it...but my mixes are weird"

look at tchad blake.....that guy makes the most UN-major label sounding records, and he's done nothing but get busier and busier.  people are drawn to his unique approach to audio.

pergatory wrote:

Quote:

Your point - it depends on how you look at it - is taken and appreciated, but there has to be a time that it just gets stupid to stay in town, also.

i'm in kansas................i have projects from chicago, san fransico, fayetteville AR.....you can always network outside of your area.

i've spent WAY more time and resources getting my name out of this town then i have keeping it in.

it's like fletcher always told me when i worked at mercenary....."it's not hard to be the big fish in a mud hole, but where does that get you?"

i hope my personal realities help you shed some light on your own realities

keep your chin up......no one said this was easy

[Fibes]

Steve and J. make great points and from a "big fish in a mudhole" I'll say, be glad you have something to aspire to. Sure, it's easy that my competition is a bunch of hacks with VS units or prosumer DAWs with shit front ends installed in a trunk room. They come and go, steal some of the shitwork while they can and sooner or later the bands end up working with me or heading to a major market. There is one dude in town with experience, cred, talent and gear, guess what? He is my friend, i get referrals all the time because he got fed up with flaky ass musicians and got into movies, TV and adverts. The talent pool here is pretty good but there is no pecking order and bands are happy to put out shit product just to say they did. It's a complacent environment right now, unlike i've ever seen. The DIY studio has lowered the bar.

How does this pertain to you? Be glad there is a pecking order in the NW, every market needs one whether it be studios, bands, car washes or whatever. it makes things stronger and gives you something to strive for. One day you might be the dude who is on top and the one that the new guard is shooting for. until then, shut up and get to work. Hehnheh.

[Invisible Member]

pergatory wrote on Wed, 18 August 2004 15:06

Hi J, there's a sizable debate amongst the pac nw production community.  You know who I'm talking about.  This guy's top of the heap success is pretty mystifying.

I don't? Im pretty clueless can you PM me to let me on to who your talking about please. Its not me I do know that much

Anyhow keep your head up, most of the work I get is from folks who blew their wad at other places and left unhappy. Once my studio finishes fixing the noise abatement problems and it gets rolling again I'll be happy. I want to help people and sometimes a blow things myself but my goal is to make the customer happy. Its all part of the gig even though the customer isn't always satified. After not doing this steadily since the late 80's Ive seen alot of people come and go, and some who weren't all that good are still around because of being consistant and having intergrity.

Peace,
Dennis

[j.hall]

what does it matter who this person is.

it's totally meaningless to this conversation......

for all we know, this is some hypothetical....

let's keep it on topic, and try to help pergatory help him/herself.

[pergatory]

Thanks J.  I apperciate the time you and steve spent to contribute quality responses.  

I think a good point here is the level of socializing that needs to happen to keep a client list.  There's the ideal of 'shut up and work' that was stated from a misguided responder in this tree, and then there's the reality.  I seriously should be at the bar 3 or 4 nights a week.  There are people who end their sessions at 12ish as an m.o. so they can get to the bar before close.  I'm not describing what it takes to become a hapless scenester drunk here, this is what it takes to record enough bands to keep going.

Having said this, I will never view going to the bar as part of the gig, but prudent to get the gig - like touring.  A great way to get the name out, but it's not recording bands.  My point is semantic, but I gotta draw the line somewhere.

Hmmm... tape op = success, man I gotta go schmooze Larry right now!!

I know what you're getting at J - sorry, couldn't resist.

So, now that I've effectively degraded this conversation to drivel, I'll thank you all for your input and go...

I think 'cheers' is an appropriate signoff here....    

[Fibes]

pergatory wrote on Thu, 19 August 2004 13:46

There's the ideal of 'shut up and work' that was stated from a misguided responder in this tree, and then there's the reality.

As misguided as I may try to be most of the time the "shut up and work" line isn't about scmoozing, it's directed at whining about not being where you would like to be at. the only way you're going to move forward is by doing, whether that entails tracking, mixing or schmoozing.

Now that i've cleared up a misunderstanding i'll go back to work.

[pergatory]

great. yet another forum pissing match.

[Fibes]

pergatory wrote on Thu, 19 August 2004 14:29

great. yet another forum pissing match.

Dear anon person under the name pergatory,

This is not a pissing match, you misunderstood something and I tried to clear it up. If you only wanted J.'s advice the PM system is perfect for that. Otherwise this thread is about more than you, others will gleam things from it and maybe apply them to their life too.
Having a sense of humor and a thick skin is important in this business if you want to succeed, try it...

[pergatory]

Thank you, kind fibes for your suggestions on correcting obvious personal flaws.  You surely have far more experience in this business than I.  At some point I hope to work with you and glean what must be a veritable plethora of technical and social skills that I can only dream to achieve without your pious guidance.

[Fibes]

Whatever.

[j.hall]

pergatory wrote on Thu, 19 August 2004 12:46

I will never view going to the bar as part of the gig, but prudent to get the gig - like touring.  A great way to get the name out, but it's not recording bands.  My point is semantic, but I gotta draw the line somewhere.

i like that.....but all in all, cleaning toilets is "part of the gig" as well.

i'm not above anything to keep my operation running full speed ahead, or even limping along....just so as i'm moving forward.

i just don't see why you are beating yourself up over all this.

it really seems like you are angry about it.

i'm not telling you how to feel, or even what to think......i'm just curious what has you turned upside down about this

are you just sick of the way the music scene works?

i think moving from the PAC NW will find you two things.

either you'll move to a smaller market (like me) and realize that the arts are very supported up there and now there are no bands to deal with

and/or

it's the EXACT same in other towns

Quote:

So, now that I've effectively degraded this conversation to drivel, I'll thank you all for your input and go...

no need to leave

fibes is a good friend of mine, he's not trying to start some pissing match......if you don't like his opinion, at least respect the fact that he is entitled to one, and may actually be helping other people reading this

"the tools they might be swinging, but we will not be beaten down."

keep fighting man......it's worth it.

[Invisible Member]

j.hall wrote on Thu, 19 August 2004 09:02

what does it matter who this person is. it's totally meaningless to this conversation...... for all we know, this is some hypothetical.... let's keep it on topic, and try to help pergatory help him/herself.

Sorry.


Peace,
Dennis

[trexrox]

j.hall wrote on Thu, 19 August 2004 10:56

pergatory wrote: Quote: subjecting yourself to a ridiculous amount of schmoozing just to pay rent..... YES....because that is our job.....the phone doesn't just ring unless you are andy wallace.....and he spent years making his phone ring. i spend more time talking about recording then i spend recording.......i've bought more people beers and never seen business from them then i care to remember.  this is what i do, it is simply part of running a business.

There's a lot of honesty and good advice going on here...

So, anyone care to reveal their secrets on "schmoozing"?  This is one of things I find to be the most difficult about my job as a studio owner.

[JPRisus]

J. made a great point in that you'll find pretty much the same thing wherever you go. I live in an area loaded with studios, everything from multi-million-dollar to basement DAWs, and you'd be amazed at how small the industry really is... everyone knows each other, and rather than fighting it, i've found it better to just do my thing and let the results speak for themselves.  

There's a pretty large studio nearby that is very well known and is a first-call place for just about every band in the rock/punk/hardcore/emo/bullshit genre...  I used to feel intimidated, like they were the bad guy that i had to beat or something. Since then, i've grown a bit, gotten to know the fine gentlemen at said establishment, and have realized my original feelings were childish and based on insecurity. That studio has raised the bar overall in this area and has helped bands realize the difference between quality and crap, which in turn has helped me. Rather than attempt to compete, i've carved my own little niche, and people come to me because they want to work with me and for no other reason at all.

Fibes made a good point, regardless of what anyone else thinks. You can't get better without doing. We don't know you or your work, but the best chance at surviving anywhere is by finding your own thing, sticking with it dilligently, and letting it known throughout your area that this is who you are and what you do. It's really the only way IMHO.

A wise man once told me, when you have a destination in mind, sometimes it's the twists and turns throughout the journey that make life so worth it. Sometimes that's more fun than even reaching the goal.