R/E/P Community

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

Pages: [1]   Go Down

Author Topic: Mixing for how I want vs. How it will be mastered?  (Read 2509 times)

Big Bri

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 65
Mixing for how I want vs. How it will be mastered?
« on: August 18, 2004, 02:29:57 AM »

First of all, I know everyone agrees cd levels are too hot, this is not a debate I want in this thread.  I want this to be more productive than that.

Quick background...I just reviewed the final master for a record i just mixed and it suffers from L2 disease.  I know the mastering engineer and called him about it...As I thought the client wanted it rediculously loud...Fine, we're still friends.

What I want to know is,

A.  Knowing certain clients want this, what can I do in mixing to keep my balances intact when it gets to you guys and they want you to stomp on it? (example...limit drum transients more or get your gtr balance then back it off a couple of db)

B.  In most cases all I feel the mix needs is a volume boost and a little judicious eq from an informed, talented ear, That being said- Is it just impossible to bring up the level to that of most major releases without significant audio damage?

C.  If the answer to B is yes, then would it be a good idea to mix through strong limiting, obtain the balances with the limiter crankin and then turn it off and send this to you knowing that the limiter will be there in the end? Or is this just counter-intuitive?


Once again this is not a thread to pick on mastering guys, you are under the same client scrutiny as the rest of us. I would really like some positive thoughts to help in this dilemma of the day. Thanks for your input.

Best regards to all,
Brian
Logged

TotalSonic

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3728
Re: Mixing for how I want vs. How it will be mastered?
« Reply #1 on: August 18, 2004, 09:04:08 AM »

I really feel that this kind of trying to think around possible future problems by mixing for anything other than what sounds good to you won't help matters at all.  To me much more preferable would be:
1) simply mix so it sounds the best possible to you.  I should note that I have been getting a ton of mixes recently that are damaged by poor peak limiting that was done by the mix engineer - so I do recommend that level "maximizers" are left off in the mixing stage.

2) spend some time educating your client regarding how extreme levels can potentially damage the sound of their release.

3) communicate with the mastering engineer expressing your concerns and choose the one you use or refer clients to regularly based on the one who can return a final to you closest to how you would like it.

If the client asked for extreme levels and the mastering engineer was simply honoring their request then there really isn't anything in mixing I can think of that you could have done to have made the end product better - it's really in the hands of the mastering engineer at that point.  There are indeed ways of maximizing level while reducing the damage it does - however in order to get to the extreme RMS levels of some notorious major label releases then the dynamic range will indeed get crushed.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

mcsnare

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 958
Re: Mixing for how I want vs. How it will be mastered?
« Reply #2 on: August 18, 2004, 09:34:06 AM »

    I don't think it's a good idea to orient your mix for least damage during mastering level overkill. You can't second guess what the mastering engineer is going to do to get extreme level. You also are compromising the sound of your mix forever, unless you remix at some later date. You can't cheat the laws of physics. 0dbfs is 0dbfs, and anything done to go above this level or limit the signal to stay at this level is gonna adversely effect the sound. In other words, whether the mixer limits peaks or the mastering person does it, the speakers are physically moving less air.
   Having said all that, some mixes DO seem to "go louder" with less obvious consequences than others. Specifically in the rock/pop genre, I've noticed that the mixes with  a subjectively even, balanced energy/frequency content, and very subjectively "punchy" sounding to begin with, will hide level induced artifacts better than mixes with wimpy sounding rhythm sections and spikey, glaring sounding instruments and vocals. The clipping artifacts really make the spikey sounding stuff hurt and  limiting will turn a soft sounding track to mush a lot quicker. I'm not saying everybody should try and make their mixes sound like Tom Lord Alge, but those kind of mixes just simply seem to "go louder" at the mastering stage, even though plenty of TLA's mixes have been ruined by insane mastering level. Check out the latest Liz Phair CD. The verses sound decent but when it hits the choruses, things really get ugly.
   The whole game in modern mixing is to get things as smooth and even sounding but at the same time aggressive and powerful. Kind of a Zen thing.
Dave McNair
 

bobkatz

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2926
Re: Mixing for how I want vs. How it will be mastered?
« Reply #3 on: August 18, 2004, 12:32:10 PM »

Big Bri wrote on Wed, 18 August 2004 02:29

First of all, I know everyone agrees cd levels are too hot, this is not a debate I want in this thread.  I want this to be more productive than that.

Quick background...I just reviewed the final master for a record i just mixed and it suffers from L2 disease.  I know the mastering engineer and called him about it...As I thought the client wanted it rediculously loud...Fine, we're still friends.

SNIP

A.  Knowing certain clients want this, what can I do in mixing to keep my balances intact when it gets to you guys and they want you to stomp on it? (example...limit drum transients more or get your gtr balance then back it off a couple of db)






Well, I don't think you can ever "anticipate". But I must say one the most "level-tolerant" mixes I've gotten are ones that are open, and clear and clean and have good transients, snappy (not too snappy, just right) snare and all. They survive the mastering level wars the best.

Then again, there's the argument that your mix has to sound "loud" or the mastering never can make it very loud. This is partly true, but regardless, keep the mix open and clear and with good transients or a loud mastering will really change it.

Quote:



B.  In most cases all I feel the mix needs is a volume boost and a little judicious eq from an informed, talented ear, That being said- Is it just impossible to bring up the level to that of most major releases without significant audio damage?




That's a contradiction in terms! You can't beat the laws of physics. Most (many) major releases are terribly damaged, and they are damaged because of their level. You can't have your major level cake and eat it, too.

Quote:



C.  If the answer to B is yes, then would it be a good idea to mix through strong limiting, obtain the balances with the limiter crankin and then turn it off and send this to you knowing that the limiter will be there in the end?




I personally wouldn't go that way. I really don't think you can anticipate what the mastering engineer is going to do and try to work against that; you'll end up with a very strange and ugly sounding mix. Make a great sounding mix with decent transients, hire a good mastering engineer and cross your fingers. If the mastering engineer is not under much pressure, he/she should work with you to end up with a product that sounds as good as or BETTER than your mix without destroying the mix's values. At least that's my take on it.
Logged
There are two kinds of fools,
One says-this is old and therefore good.
The other says-this is new and therefore better."

No trees were killed in the sending of this message. However a large number of
electrons were terribly inconvenienced.

JPRisus

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 275
Re: Mixing for how I want vs. How it will be mastered?
« Reply #4 on: August 18, 2004, 05:09:24 PM »

Easy answer... use a mastering engineer you trust, and don't worry about it. Just find the song within those tracks, and don't start thinking too much about it. I don't compress or EQ the 2bus at all, because I trust Brad for that. If I didn't know who was going to master it, that would be a different story. But as long as I know I can trust who it's going to, I don't worry at all. Ever wonder why Andy Wallace and Howie Weinberg share so many album credits? Their styles compliment one another.
Logged
J.P. Sheganoski
Engineer/Mixer
www.RisusProductions.com
Purevolume.com/risusproductions

Big Bri

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 65
Re: Mixing for how I want vs. How it will be mastered?
« Reply #5 on: August 19, 2004, 01:30:37 AM »

Thank you for your responses,

Bob, you stated a mix with good transient response survives the best...thats what I thought too, but it was the transient respose of the kick and snare that suffered the most.  Thats why I brought this up. I mixed this much Like a Tom Lord-Alge mix(or as close as my skills allow) and it seems he has better luck in retaining his drum sound in loud masters. Thats kinda why I asked the question of limiting the transients of the drums moreso in the mix.  I Know I'm digging here but this has really bothered me.

Thanks for your responses
Brian

P.S. BK, I really enjoyed reading your book...Put me on the list for your next one.  Hope you weathered the storm in Florida.
Logged

bblackwood

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7036
Re: Mixing for how I want vs. How it will be mastered?
« Reply #6 on: August 19, 2004, 08:56:57 AM »

I agree with  most everything above - don't mix for mastering.

I can tell you this - TLA's drums sound like that coming off the mix buss, it doesn't happen in mastering. IME, his drums sound bigger and better before the mafia gets hold of it...
Logged
Brad Blackwood
euphonic masters
Pages: [1]   Go Up
 

Site Hosted By Ashdown Technologies, Inc.

Page created in 0.068 seconds with 19 queries.