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[Christopher Wilson]

Two years ago, while testing equipment before a remote job, I discovered my LavryBlue Micpre was not functioning.  The next day, an email exchange with "Tech Support" informed me I could send the unit to them, agreeing to their "minimal two hour bench fee" of $90 per hour.

Fletcher wrote on Wed, 15 September 2010 18:45

The bottom line [at least to me, in my twisted world] is that "out of warranty repair" should NOT be a "profit center" but a service that is based on "cost of parts" [+ a margin to cover the stocking of those parts] plus labor to "repair and replace".

And in addition, an equipment failure can be horribly disastrous.  Gear (and their manufactures) must be held to the same standards we are held to by those who employ us.  Generally, nothing gets to go wrong.  Period.  And that was the upsetting part.  Feeling like the manufacturer didn't care.

Like you Andre, I posted the details of this incident (on another forum) asking for some advice.  Within an hour, Priscilla contacted me and said Dan saw my post was going to figure out what went wrong. I called to talk with him about it and he was quite curious and helpful.

Though I've read several heated arguments involving him on various threads, my experience with him personally has always been pleasant and I have learned a lot from speaking with him.  He has never treated me like he didn't have the time, and eagerly answered my questions.

I really hope this is just yet another customer service fumble and they will work to get you up and running in a way that will encourage you to recommend their equipment to others.

Please keep us updated, and good luck.

[gutr2]

Hi there Christopher,

Thanks VERY much for your reply and sharing your experience.
It's quite encouraging.
I too really hope that this can be somehow fixed.

I've made a few attempts to speak to Dan, mostly asking Priscilla to pass me emails onto him. Unsuccessfully.
I posted today (here and on another forum) but this situation with emails back and forth has been going on for over a week now.

I would LOVE to be able to get Dan involved somehow.
And I also HOPE for the best.

Thanks again!
Andre

Christopher Wilson wrote on Wed, 15 September 2010 19:54

Two years ago, while testing equipment before a remote job, I discovered my LavryBlue Micpre was not functioning.  The next day, an email exchange with "Tech Support" informed me I could send the unit to them, agreeing to their "minimal two hour bench fee" of $90 per hour. Fletcher wrote on Wed, 15 September 2010 18:45  The bottom line [at least to me, in my twisted world] is that "out of warranty repair" should NOT be a "profit center" but a service that is based on "cost of parts" [+ a margin to cover the stocking of those parts] plus labor to "repair and replace". And in addition, an equipment failure can be horribly disastrous.  Gear (and their manufactures) must be held to the same standards we are held to by those who employ us.  Generally, nothing gets to go wrong.  Period.  And that was the upsetting part.  Feeling like the manufacturer didn't care. Like you Andre, I posted the details of this incident (on another forum) asking for some advice.  Within an hour, Priscilla contacted me and said Dan saw my post was going to figure out what went wrong. I called to talk with him about it and he was quite curious and helpful. Though I've read several heated arguments involving him on various threads, my experience with him personally has always been pleasant and I have learned a lot from speaking with him.  He has never treated me like he didn't have the time, and eagerly answered my questions. I really hope this is just yet another customer service fumble and they will work to get you up and running in a way that will encourage you to recommend their equipment to others. Please keep us updated, and good luck.

[Waltz Mastering]

It certainly sucks when sh*t blows up a couple years out of warranty.

...but from the email response that was posted in another forum,  I not sure I see a reason to go on about it.

gutr2;5792708

Dear Andre, We warranty our products for one year. As I mentioned this issue is a very unusual one. One of the broken traces runs under the IC which blew so we cannot fix your M.AD board and since you do not even want one for dealer price I guess the only thing left to do is to return your broken unit. You could sell it on Ebay. I am sorry. Regards, Priscilla Lavry

[maarvold]

J.J. Blair wrote on Wed, 15 September 2010 18:41

When a specialized boutique company of this size exists, they need to be known for their customer service. as much as the quality of their product.  Lavry seems to have failed to grasp this, for some time now...

I don't have specific dealings with Lavry Engineering, but it seems like this type of behavior is behavior that "wins the battle and loses the war".  As a mixer, I periodically will contribute some of my own time for no charge (if the client isn't fully happy with something) or even occasionally walk away from a project I have started without charging (if the client doesn't like my direction).  And I sleep really well at night.  I think that's referred to as standing behind your product.  But, of course, there are 2 sides to every story and we may be hearing it primarily from one perspective in this case.  Still, it doesn't sound good.  And I would guess this thread has cost them at least a half dozen potential customers at this point.  

[tom eaton]

gutr2;5792708

Dear Andre, We warranty our products for one year. As I mentioned this issue is a very unusual one. One of the broken traces runs under the IC which blew so we cannot fix your M.AD board and since you do not even want one for dealer price I guess the only thing left to do is to return your broken unit. You could sell it on Ebay. I am sorry. Regards, Priscilla Lavry

If that's actually the response you got from them, this entire thread is outrageous.  Most companies would charge you retail for the parts and then add labor... she's offered you dealer price on the part!  

You need to factor repairs into your cost of doing business.  It's an entire category unto itself when I submit my info to my accountant at the end of the year.

Now for the commiseration part:

I bought an NHT B20 stereo sub system direct from the NHT some years ago.  The system has a controller/amp with a remote bypass switch.  The remote bypass switch turned the subs off, but didn't bypass the crossovers... so I called the company.  They argued with me, and then looked at the schematic and found I was right.  They told me they'd fix my (brand new) unit, I just had to pay to ship it back to them.  I was b.s. about it... it was brand new, and defective, and I had to pay to get it back to the factory?  The thing weighs 50lbs and they're on the other coast.  They told me their repair policy was that the customer pays for freight to them and they would pay for return freight.  I was too far into the system (in terms of money spent) to NOT have it work, so I ponied up, and they did their part.  Still ticks me off, though... 8 years later!

tom

[Jim Williams]

Let's find a solution for you. If a chip blew, you just need to know which one. Then you need to order a replacement.

Any competent bench tech with surface mount skills can replace it for you. Estimate about 1 hour bench time. A bit of "chipquik" and you can remove it safely.

If it's a converter chip, expect either .5 mm lead spacing for common ADC chips or .25 mm spacing fine pitch for most modern DAC chips.

If a trace burned up under the chip that blew, a piece of kayner wire can fix that right up. If it burned up a trace in a multilayer pcb inside an interior layer, that may be tough but it seems this is not the case since they identified the trace as under the blown IC. How they could determine that without seeing it is another mystery.

If a microprocessor blew, those can be more tricky with a hundred fine itch leads, but still can be done. I suspect that is not the problem here.

It's very common for "service centers" to avoid surface mount component swaps as it's easier for them to charge $196 and swap a card for another $800 in about 20 minutes. To me those are lawyer rates.

I'm with the consensus here, a service division of a small manufacturer shouldn't make the service a profit center. Find another place to repair this for you.

[Waltz Mastering]

tom eaton wrote on Thu, 16 September 2010 10:06

If that's actually the response you got from them, this entire thread is outrageous.  Most companies would charge you retail for the parts and then add labor... she's offered you dealer price on the part!

I totally agree.

Not being able to hear in totality the other side of the story...
...still having their name run through the mud while losing future clients based on an isolated incident... even if not the most personable Co...

[MDM,]

this is yet another downside of ic-based gear, especially surface-mounted stuff which not everybody can do..

same thing happens with computers: video chip blew on my toshiba qosmio 1 week after warranty expired.. they 'had' to replace the motherboard which cost about 1000 dollars or so..

I complained because to me it was obvious that it was a design failure whereas they said that NO IT WASN'T.

..as soon as the computer arrives, I am told that the startup disks are different because the new version has a different video chip.... so I guess I was right after all.


but yeah.. Lavry should not have charged you so much IMO

[tom eaton]

Jim Williams wrote on Thu, 16 September 2010 10:20

It's very common for "service centers" to avoid surface mount component swaps as it's easier for them to charge $196 and swap a card for another $800 in about 20 minutes. To me those are lawyer rates.

But dropping in a replacement part does nothing to determine WHY that part failed, or if related or nearby parts are out of spec, damaged or malfunctioning.  If the option is there to replace a board (with a warranty), personally that option appeals to me.

I hate fixing one thing and then discovering and fixing the thing that caused the first thing to fail (because you usually have to replace the first thing again!).

tom

[gutr2]

Tom,

As I said, that email response out-of-context doesn't sound too bad. Bear in mind that response was after me politely suggesting a bunch of other solutions, which were ignored.

My previous email to her was "I accept the dealer price", but then she added labor fees back , which she had said she would wave (out of spite?).

I then remind her to not charge me labor, which she had given me her word for. She replies saying:

"So many ideas went back and forth and I don't have any more time for this.
We tried to satisfy you but see that you are not satisfied.

Sorry for the confusion but the invoice will remain as it is.

Sincerely,
Priscilla Lavry
CEO Lavry Engineering Inc.

In other words, she is saying, since we're trying hard to satisfy you (by charging you $780 to repair a $880 piece) and you're not happy, we will return the broken unit to you.

Here's here following email:

Andre,
Our communication is ending. We will return your unit with the old board and
you can do what you will with it.

We have sold perhaps a thousand LavryBlue units without having a board blow
up. The fact that yours did after three years is something that we have no
control over nor is it covered by warranty. We have tried to help by selling
a new module to you at dealer cost and billing 1/2  our normal technician
charges.

I will not be answering any more emails. This is over. My technicians and I
have spent too much time trying to help you. At this point we will not
accept your credit card. You will need to send a certified  bank check to
our POBox in Rolling Bay.


Priscilla Lavry
CEO Lavry Engineering Inc.

Again, it may not sound too bad out of context, but is this the correct way to treat a customer? Charging $780 or even $880 for a repair (to a $880 module) when the actual cost is likely under $100 (what do I know?) could potentially be acceptable, but not the customer treatment I received.

Although many other manufacturers would go out of their way to please their customers and provide repair and replacements free of charge or with a reasonable charge, THAT'S NOT WHAT I'M ASKING. I would perfectly happy paying $400 for this and be treated like a person (let alone a customer)

tom eaton wrote on Thu, 16 September 2010 07:06

gutr2;5792708 Dear Andre, We warranty our products for one year. As I mentioned this issue is a very unusual one. One of the broken traces runs under the IC which blew so we cannot fix your M.AD board and since you do not even want one for dealer price I guess the only thing left to do is to return your broken unit. You could sell it on Ebay. I am sorry. Regards, Priscilla Lavry If that's actually the response you got from them, this entire thread is outrageous.  Most companies would charge you retail for the parts and then add labor... she's offered you dealer price on the part!   You need to factor repairs into your cost of doing business.  It's an entire category unto itself when I submit my info to my accountant at the end of the year. Now for the commiseration part: I bought an NHT B20 stereo sub system direct from the NHT some years ago.  The system has a controller/amp with a remote bypass switch.  The remote bypass switch turned the subs off, but didn't bypass the crossovers... so I called the company.  They argued with me, and then looked at the schematic and found I was right.  They told me they'd fix my (brand new) unit, I just had to pay to ship it back to them.  I was b.s. about it... it was brand new, and defective, and I had to pay to get it back to the factory?  The thing weighs 50lbs and they're on the other coast.  They told me their repair policy was that the customer pays for freight to them and they would pay for return freight.  I was too far into the system (in terms of money spent) to NOT have it work, so I ponied up, and they did their part.  Still ticks me off, though... 8 years later! tom

[tom eaton]

You have e-mails from her stating that she would charge you labor at half-rate, dealer cost on the part... and you can't come to a workable solution?  

This is, honestly, how small companies get f*cked over.  Now every person who needs help from Lavry will tell them that they should charge half for labor and dealer cost for parts.

I understand that you are upset.  But you're somehow not seeing that she WAS WORKING WITH YOU.

How much money do you think Lavry made selling you your $880 piece of gear?  They may have just hit the break even point on R&D after selling 1000 units.  Did you buy it direct from them? If not, did you speak with the dealer you bought it from?

How can you possibly expect them to eat the half the cost of an out of warranty repair?  It seems to me that she made at least two concessions in your favor when she really didn't have to make any.  No?

When my VW needed a new engine at 70,000 miles for 6k, I had to decide whether I wanted to have my car with a new engine or put that money into a used car with who-knows-what problems.  Now it's at the shop going on three weeks again bleeding me for another 4k of work at 80,000 miles.  Things break, if you want to use them you have them fixed.  It sucks.  Everyone else who drives a Eurovan that I know loves them and hasn't had the problems I've had.

I hope people who read this thread can see that the concessions that Lavry made to you in writing were more than fair for a major repair more than a year out of warranty.

I have no Lavry gear and no association whatsoever with them.  But I do own my own business, and try hard to treat people fairly... but that comes with the recognition that some people want me to bend over backwards to solve their problems and I have to decide how far I will bend.

At what point do you say "Gee, Priscilla... thanks for cutting me slack on the cost of the board and the labor fee... I know you don't have to do that and I really appreciate it."

tom

[gutr2]

Hey Tom,

Please read my previous post, which explains a lot of what you mentioned.

I'm not as upset at the high repair cost as I'm upset about the customer treatment I received. With sentences like "I have not time for this" or "sell it on ebay" or "we will return the unit to you unrepaired and won't accept a credit card"
or even "we won't charge you labor" but then add $98 labor to the invoice.
When I emailed back and said "I thought you weren't going to charge me for labor. Both you and Brad said that" the reply I got was "I have no time for this, the invoice will stay as it is"

None of my thoughts or ideas, solutions were mentioned in her replies, and something as simple as "Could you put me in touch with Dan" would send her through the roof, replying to me with spite and hostility.

If you think there's nothing wrong with that, you're entitled to your opinion.

And by the way, here's some sentences taken from MY emails to her.

"Hi there Priscilla,

Thanks very much for your quick reply!
Yes I do appreciate the $196 discount on the labor. Thank you!

This is how I typically ended my emails:

I REALLY appreciate your help Priscilla and so far have nothing but the best
compliments to Lavry as a company.
Thanks,
Andre

tom eaton wrote on Thu, 16 September 2010 12:48

You have e-mails from her stating that she would charge you labor at half-rate, dealer cost on the part... and you can't come to a workable solution?   This is, honestly, how small companies get f*cked over.  Now every person who needs help from Lavry will tell them that they should charge half for labor and dealer cost for parts. I understand that you are upset.  But you're somehow not seeing that she WAS WORKING WITH YOU. How much money do you think Lavry made selling you your $880 piece of gear?  They may have just hit the break even point on R&D after selling 1000 units.  Did you buy it direct from them? If not, did you speak with the dealer you bought it from? How can you possibly expect them to eat the half the cost of an out of warranty repair?  It seems to me that she made at least two concessions in your favor when she really didn't have to make any.  No? When my VW needed a new engine at 70,000 miles for 6k, I had to decide whether I wanted to have my car with a new engine or put that money into a used car with who-knows-what problems.  Now it's at the shop going on three weeks again bleeding me for another 4k of work at 80,000 miles.  Things break, if you want to use them you have them fixed.  It sucks.  Everyone else who drives a Eurovan that I know loves them and hasn't had the problems I've had. I hope people who read this thread can see that the concessions that Lavry made to you in writing were more than fair for a major repair more than a year out of warranty. I have no Lavry gear and no association whatsoever with them.  But I do own my own business, and try hard to treat people fairly... but that comes with the recognition that some people want me to bend over backwards to solve their problems and I have to decide how far I will bend. At what point do you say "Gee, Priscilla... thanks for cutting me slack on the cost of the board and the labor fee... I know you don't have to do that and I really appreciate it." tom

[mazoaudio]

Word. I'm with you Tom. And this really the way we want someone to join the forum with a trash talkin' thread like this? I have no Lavry gear either.

[feedback loop]

gutr2 wrote on Thu, 16 September 2010 12:14

Again, it may not sound too bad out of context, but is this the correct way to treat a customer? Charging $780 or even $880 for a repair (to a $880 module) when the actual cost is likely under $100...

A company can charge whatever they believe the market is willing to pay for their product/services. You, as a consumer, can either pay their price or move on and look for a better deal elsewhere.

[gutr2]

Also Tom, you talk about "cost" when I would use the word "profit".

I didn't expect them to eat any cost, I asked them (not expected) to reduce their profit.

They could have politely said, no we can't do that.
But they chose to threaten to refuse repair and send the broken unit back to me.

Again, you're entitled to your opinion, but that's not the kind of practices I would like to see manufacturers that I buy "high dollar" gear from enforce.