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[gutr2]

Hi there folks,

Sorry for the vent out, but I feel there are somethings about Lavry Engineering the audio community should know about.

I'm going to try to keep this short.

One morning, my Lavry blue AD module blows up in smokes for no reason - no misuse, babied in private studio, plugged into a power conditioner, well ventilated, air conditioned room, etc.

So I sent the unit back to Lavry (having to agree to a non-refundable $196 minimum rate for check up / repair) in the hopes they would admit to a design flaw or some kind of defect and/or be willing to repair for a reasonable charge, since it's out of warranty.

Well, next thing I know, I'm told that IC blowing up is unusual, therefore it can not be considered a manufacturing defect and the whole AD module has to be replaced, which they can offer me for the full retail price of $880!!!

I'm freaking out and thinking this is outrageous, so I start to send them emails asking for a more reasonable solution. They were extremely "stiff", difficult, unhelpful, short and unwilling to satisfy. The best they could offer was dealers price ($660) which is still a huge markup over what it actually cost them. The CEO, Priscilla showed no customer skills whatsoever and was actually quite mean. First giving me her word that if I bought the new module, she would charge me no labor, but then sent the invoice with the labor included.
When I reminded her she'd said the would charge me no labor, she rudely said she had "no time for this" and the invoice would stay as it was.

No attempts on my my part to discuss the cause of the problem or a possible solution were responded to and when I asked to speak to Dan Lavry, she "punished" me by saying she would return to unit to me unrepaired and would not respond to any more emails. (And charge me the $196 for the check up)

Let me mention that as hard as it was, I kept the cool and never once was offensive, never used the terms outrageous, ridiculous, ripped-off, etc..

Am I going crazy or is this terrible customer service?
They feel like they're giving me a good deal by charging me $800 for a repair. When I show I'm not happy, they shut the door on my face?

At the same time I sent my GTQ2mk3 back to Aurora Audio for a repair, no questions asked, no charge. What a difference!!

[jetbase]

Without commenting on the customer service aspect, whenever I've had to get digital equipment repaired it has always ended up quite expensive. I had a set of Prism converters 'blow up', I think due to overheating. I'm pretty sure it cost me in the $600-$800 range to repair, the most expensive part being labour. Fortunately I was able to hire these converters out & quickly make up for the repair cost outside of normal studio income. The most painful experience for me was getting a DAT recorder repaired for $800 when I knew the format was just about over. So the costs you mention don't seem out of the ordinary to me. I feel your pain though. I remember hearing, years ago, that as a rule of thumb a studio should allow for around 10% of the value of it's equipment in maintenance costs. I do much of my own maintenance so it ends up being a lot less.

[feedback loop]

gutr2 wrote on Wed, 15 September 2010 16:04

No attempts on my my part to discuss the cause of the problem or a possible solution were responded to

Not true. According to your statement they told you the problem was a blown IC and that the solution was to replace it. They don't owe you any more than that.

[Fletcher]

When I was with Mercenary Audio we dropped the Lavry Engineering line because of Priscilla Lavry and not the sound of the product.  We affectionally called her "the crazy lady" in the building, and nobody [outside of the accounting department] ever had to ask who we were talking about.

From what I understand from the original post, a chip went south.  That chip probably doesn't cost more than $50.  The question is "why" the chip went south!!  Was it a weak chip [shit happens] or was it another "weak" component that caused the failure?  The bottom line [at least to me, in my twisted world] is that "out of warranty repair" should NOT be a "profit center" but a service that is based on "cost of parts" [+ a margin to cover the stocking of those parts] plus labor to "repair and replace".

Let's not forget that the manufacturer gains valuable knowledge from every failure that is repaired, information that will [hopefully] prevent future failures in future revisions.

Peace.

[mturk]

Based on what you have said I don't think they were unreasonable at all. Just because something "smokes" doesn't mean there was a design flaw. Your hopes of it being a design flaw didn't materialize and I agree with a CEO not wanting, or having the time to deal with small customer service issues. I think she handled it correctly and I would have done the same.

gutr2 wrote on Wed, 15 September 2010 19:04

Hi there folks, Sorry for the vent out, but I feel there are somethings about Lavry Engineering the audio community should know about. I'm going to try to keep this short. One morning, my Lavry blue AD module blows up in smokes for no reason - no misuse, babied in private studio, plugged into a power conditioner, well ventilated, air conditioned room, etc. So I sent the unit back to Lavry (having to agree to a non-refundable $196 minimum rate for check up / repair) in the hopes they would admit to a design flaw or some kind of defect and/or be willing to repair for a reasonable charge, since it's out of warranty. Well, next thing I know, I'm told that IC blowing up is unusual, therefore it can not be considered a manufacturing defect and the whole AD module has to be replaced, which they can offer me for the full retail price of $880!!! I'm freaking out and thinking this is outrageous, so I start to send them emails asking for a more reasonable solution. They were extremely "stiff", difficult, unhelpful, short and unwilling to satisfy. The best they could offer was dealers price ($660) which is still a huge markup over what it actually cost them. The CEO, Priscilla showed no customer skills whatsoever and was actually quite mean. First giving me her word that if I bought the new module, she would charge me no labor, but then sent the invoice with the labor included. When I reminded her she'd said the would charge me no labor, she rudely said she had "no time for this" and the invoice would stay as it was. No attempts on my my part to discuss the cause of the problem or a possible solution were responded to and when I asked to speak to Dan Lavry, she "punished" me by saying she would return to unit to me unrepaired and would not respond to any more emails. (And charge me the $196 for the check up) Let me mention that as hard as it was, I kept the cool and never once was offensive, never used the terms outrageous, ridiculous, ripped-off, etc.. Am I going crazy or is this terrible customer service? They feel like they're giving me a good deal by charging me $800 for a repair. When I show I'm not happy, they shut the door on my face? At the same time I sent my GTQ2mk3 back to Aurora Audio for a repair, no questions asked, no charge. What a difference!!

[Otitis Media]

mturk wrote on Wed, 15 September 2010 19:51

Based on what you have said I don't think they were unreasonable at all. Just because something "smokes" doesn't mean there was a design flaw. Your hopes of it being a design flaw didn't materialize and I agree with a CEO not wanting, or having the time to deal with small customer service issues. I think she handled it correctly and I would have done the same.

Really? The "CEO" of a boutique audio gear manufacturer is "too busy" to respond to customers? Keep acting that way, and she'll have plenty of time on her hands.

[gutr2]

Hi there,

Just to be clear, I DID NOT actually think it was unreasonable for them to charge me at all. I EXPECTED to be charged, but no where near $800. The module full retails at $880.

I'm not here to tell the world how wrong Lavry are.
That's for each potential customer or member of the audio community to decide.
I may not have the "right" to contest, question or oppose their policies.
And if you read their documentation, they are entitled to charge whatever they want, and even deny repair.

What upset me most and led me to write publicly was not the high cost of repair alone, but that combined with short, hostile, unhelpful customer service responses.

If anyone thinks paying almost full retail price for a repair is ok, then that's cool.
As a customer I have the buying power to choose another company over Lavry. In fact at this point in my career, this has been the worst customer service I've ever received. Let alone their pricing policies.
I feel I was treated very unfairly and the more I tried to "negotiate" or discuss, the worse it got. I was treated with spite and childish behavior.

And I'm still prepared to give them a chance to offer me something more reasonable.

I don't presume to be right about it being a defect or flaw, all I asked for was an explanation and more reasonable solution, which is subjective and could lead to discussions, but no room was given to discussions.

[gutr2]

Please read my last post about it being more about the customer service, then the price of the repair itself. I was totally prepared to accept that it wasn't a design flaw and to pay for the repair, even though I wasn't happy about it costing almost 90% of the full retail price for the product in question.

If you think it's ok to "not have time for the customer" and treat them with hostility and childish behavior is the "correct handling", then tell me what you sell and I will make sure not to buy it )

mturk wrote on Wed, 15 September 2010 16:51

Based on what you have said I don't think they were unreasonable at all. Just because something "smokes" doesn't mean there was a design flaw. Your hopes of it being a design flaw didn't materialize and I agree with a CEO not wanting, or having the time to deal with small customer service issues. I think she handled it correctly and I would have done the same.

[zakco]

Fred Baugher wrote on Wed, 15 September 2010 16:40

They don't owe you any more than that.

I don't think anyone would disagree about that. My impression though, is that it's not about being owed, but rather simply expecting a higher level of support and civility from such a small company.

I have sent out of warranty equipment to both John Hardy and Dan Kennedy (great river). I paid shipping and was charged ZERO in labor or parts. Not to mention that both gentlemen were more than generous with their time on the phone and seemed genuinely happy to be able to stand behind their products. John went way beyond the call of duty by replacing the same component(s) in the other 3 channels just in case...just for the record, the unit is more than 10 years old.

I'm not suggesting that should be every companies policy, but it does set a general tone of pride in their products and respect for the customers who rely on their tools.

I'm with Fletcher, out of warranty repair should not be a "profit center" as he put it.

-Z-

[gutr2]

Thanks for the comments man.
You actually really helped me in giving me another argument.
You're exactly right in that it's not about being owned as much as expecting a certain level of customer service and civility.

I've only had to deal with repairs 2 or 3 times in my life, but they were all as you described about Great River and John Hardy.
Geoff Tanner at Aurora, Andrew at Purple were both amazing. Even the hardware support at Universal Audio were incredible.

I don't think I'm expecting "Too much" from Lavry.

Thanks again!

zakco wrote on Wed, 15 September 2010 18:02

Fred Baugher wrote on Wed, 15 September 2010 16:40  They don't owe you any more than that. I don't think anyone would disagree about that. My impression though, is that it's not about being owed, but rather simply expecting a higher level of support and civility from such a small company. I have sent out of warranty equipment to both John Hardy and Dan Kennedy (great river). I paid shipping and was charged ZERO in labor or parts. Not to mention that both gentlemen were more than generous with their time on the phone and seemed genuinely happy to be able to stand behind their products. John went way beyond the call of duty by replacing the same component(s) in the other 3 channels just in case...just for the record, the unit is more than 10 years old. I'm not suggesting that should be every companies policy, but it does set a general tone of pride in their products and respect for the customers who rely on their tools. I'm with Fletcher, out of warranty repair should not be a "profit center" as he put it. -Z-

[gutr2]

Maybe I expected too much from a company like Lavry, maybe I expected them to go out of their way to help, maybe I even expected to pay $300-$400 for the repair.

What I did NOT expect was "I have not time for this" or "sell it on ebay" or "we will return the unit to you unrepaired and won't accept a credit card"
or even "we won't charge you labor" but then add $98 labor to the invoice.
When I emailed back and said "I thought you weren't going to charge me for labor. Both you and Brad said that" the reply I got was "I have no time for this, the invoice will stay as it is"

I don't know about you, but to me that's worthy of a "moan" thread.

[J.J. Blair]

When a specialized boutique company of this size exists, they need to be known for their customer service. as much as the quality of their product.  Lavry seems to have failed to grasp this, for some time now.  I know too many people who won't buy Lavry, simply based on his behavior as a moderator here at PSW.  

When you ARE the company, it matters what people think of you, regardless of how great your product is.  

[compasspnt]

Fletcher wrote on Wed, 15 September 2010 19:45

The bottom line...is that "out of warranty repair" should NOT be a "profit center" but a service that is based on "cost of parts"...plus labor to "repair and replace".

Agreed 100% with this.

[Fenris Wulf]

Fletcher wrote on Thu, 16 September 2010 00:45

We affectionally called her "the crazy lady" in the building, and nobody [outside of the accounting department] ever had to ask who we were talking about.

I think we've discovered the true identity of "Penny Pincher" (Mixerman Diaries).  

[Strummer]

Manufacturing electronic products on a small scale is a blessing and a curse. You can make decent money, but you need to build a quality product so you don't spend so much time dealing with trouble calls that you have time to build new product, and yes you need to support the product beyond the warranty. This is in itself a challenge. The design changes, parts become obsolete (so more expensive), etc.

If you're Dell it's not so much an issue, your stuff is cheap due to scale and millions of computers are sold every year, you'll sell boxes regardless of your customer service, and the volume gives you time to react with PR, consultants, etc.

If you're a small manufacturer in a small market people talk. You can be a big fish but you're still in a little pond.

I know a bit about this. I manage a group that manufactures a specialty product and we go out of our way to be reasonable with out of warranty issues. We don't lose money on repairs, but the markup pays overhead and basically labor and burden. We can't afford potential customers to hear otherwise, and believe me, just like this thread, word gets around.