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[Kris]

mullard wrote on Thu, 26 August 2010 10:49

Also, I don't like idea with learning curve with particular mic to get good results. With Korby 67, TeleUSA ELAM 251 or Wagner love happened from the first 'sight'.

I think you may be reading too much into what some describe as this supposed 'learning curve'.  Around here love happens from first 'sight' daily.  

I suspect for some it's actually 'unlearning' the more traditional and straightforward mic techniques and being open to experimentation with this mic that is a 'challenge'.  

IMO, it performs beautifully in the more traditional and straightforward ways (which is how it was used by a visiting producer here last week), but ALSO gives lots of love when experimenting with placement and patterns... which to me is a BIG part of the fun when tracking.

[Barry Hufker]

I don't mean this quite the way it's going to sound as you read this...

I suppose that's my "problem".  In a session, when getting "the sound" I have an idea as to what each of my mics will do, so that's what I place first.  But if I'm not hearing the sound I expect or a sound I can work with quickly, I'm not shy about putting a different mic up.  And I do it quickly so the musicians don't have to wait while I experiment.  So now matter the mic, I want the sound "now" or I want something else.

I am in no way suggesting those who take time to "experiment" longer or better are wasting anyone's time.  I too will experiment but not for long.

Barry

[Mike Cleaver]

I really only can speak to microphones being used for vocals, specifically in a radio station setting.
Having started out in 1961, I first worked with RCA Ribbons, 44BX, 77DX, 74B.
Since then, I've had the opportunity to try many, many different microphones.
The first thing I do is sit or preferably stand behind it, usually in the radio station control or production control room and experiment, recording the tests and listening to them, both on the monitors and in headphones.
I've done this with every mic model, adjusting height, angle, method of attack, etc. until I find out what works best for my voice in that particular space with that particular board and that particular mic.
You then have the basics for setting up and using the same model in most spaces with most equipment.
I will get to try and hear the CS-1 in a pretty good studio setting with very good equipment this Sunday.
Also present will be a C-12, a very good example of a well cared for U47, an original U87 and several other high end mics.
I'll do some narration with each and then we'll try them with singers and instruments.
Based on what I have read by people I trust who own a CS-1, I'm looking forward to hearing it.
I've ordered a CS-4 for myself.
Every microphone has a learning curve to getting the most out of it.
It seems the CS-1 especially is like that, judging from the comments here.
I will let the mic's owner decide if he wants to post samples and his comments and if he wishes, I will add mine as well.
It promises to be an interesting Sunday.

[Barry Hufker]

I quickly want to agree with Mike that each microphone has a learning curve.  For me it is a long one it seems with every new mic.  It takes me a while to understand and appreciate its strengths/weaknesses.  I feel as tho' I've done that with the CS-1.  I don't want to convey that I've given it short shrift.

[marcel]

I wish every microphone came with a 1 year money back guarantee.  I honestly think it takes me that long to properly judge what a mic can (and can't) do, and whether or not I like and have a need for how it does what it does.

That being said, I have used a few mics in my life that put a huge grin on my face the second I pushed the fader up.  I do not have the means to own any of them, however.

[mullard]

marcel wrote on Thu, 26 August 2010 23:41

That being said, I have used a few mics in my life that put a huge grin on my face the second I pushed the fader up.  I do not have the means to own any of them, however.

Without intention to be impressed while tried them (assuming costs to be made) it clearly happened to me with Brauner KHE, Telefunken USA ELAM 251 (with original capsule + AC701 tube) and Wagner U47. They are very different mics and each of them is not for everything or everyone, but first couple of takes (vocals, acoustic instruments) were so convincing that I didn't doubt should I purchase them or not when budget allowed.

[Kris]

Barry Hufker wrote on Thu, 26 August 2010 16:21

I am in no way suggesting those who take time to "experiment" longer or better are wasting anyone's time.  I too will experiment but not for long. Barry

Agreed.  Any placement and pattern 'experimenting' on a client's dime shouldn't take more than a minute or three (give or take), just as with any other mic... unless directed otherwise of course!  I'll admit that I don't have a huge mic locker full of LDCs either... So at my place, the cs-1 wins most shootouts.  

[Mike Cleaver]

As I mentioned here, I had a chance to audition a CS-1 in comparison to some other high end mics on Sunday.
I posted my impressions in Whatever Works in the New Microphone thread.

[bob ebeling]

I agree with Mike's synopsis of the CS-1.

It is a wonderful microphone and you can find
delightful changes in the pattern selections.

Here is Mike's full reply from the Whatever Works thread:
"I spent a little over three hours here on Sunday: http://www.thefactorystudios.com/
Their main room and the gear is amazing!
Have a look at the pictures and yes, we did use the Neve.
Thanks to Marcel and John for a very enjoyable afternoon comparing mics to another PSW forum member's new CS-1.
We lined up several of the studio's mics, two original U-47s, a Telefunken branded one and a Neumann.
Both had original capsules and VF14M inside.
We also had a C12A and an original U87 as well as the CS-1.
I did some narration into each of the mics, working without a pop screen or windsock, working about 3 inches away from the U-47s and the same distance from the C12A and the U 87.
These mics are are fairly well known to me, except for the C12A.
One of the U47s, the Telefunken, had the magic and the sound that's been inside my head for decades.
The other had less "excitement" or as Klaus describes "magic" than the Tele.
The U87 sounded great on my voice as usual.
Now to the CS-1.
We tried it first in True Cardiod about 4 inches away.
Way too close for this mic.
Backing off to about 18 inches, it sounded glorious.
The detail and reach were amazing and the sound was beautifully balanced.
Turning the pattern selector two clicks towards figure 8 increased the room sound and made the mic sound amazing.
In a very good room such as this, the mic simply shines.
I would have no trouble working with this mic for voice overs, narration, talking books or instructional tracks.
After the narration tests, we used the CS-1 on the Yamaha Grand, a very nice acoustic guitar and a great bass guitar and tube amp.
Thanks to Eric for playing and singing for us to test the mic.
We did a one mic pickup on Eric playing and singing, about 2 feet back with the mic on the 12th fret and midway between his mouth and the soundhole.
This time the mic was set two clicks towards omni.
We miced the piano basically mid strings, again two clicks towards fig.8 with the top at a 45 degree angle and the mic about a foot over the strings.
Then Eric played his bass.
Going into the control room after these tracks, it was amazing to see Eric's face when he heard his bass, saying it never sounded as real and as meaty before.
The mic still was in 2 clicks towards fig. 8 and about six inches in front of the amp.
As others have said, this CS-1 is an entirely different breed.
I loved the sound on everything we tried it on.
As others have said, it makes great things sound even better but it can certainly bring out the flaws, if there are any.
There was no compression or eq on any of the tracks, just the mic into the Neve into ProTools with pretty high end converters.
In a great room, the mic is awesome.
I can't wait to get my CS-4 and do a similar session.
We do have files and if the mic owner agrees, I can post some of them if people are interested.
Congratulations to Terry, Oliver, Jeff and everyone involved in the making of this microphone.
In my books, and I'm not easily impressed, it's a winner, well worth the money."

[marcel]

If anyone should be interested in hearing the clips Mike has, I would offer these further comments:

Both U47s used in the test have new PSUs built by Tracy Korby.  I'm not sure if or how their topology differs from the original Neumann supplies, but I know that can have a significant impact on sound.  The C-12a has an original N-12 supply, and I cannot comment on the supply for the KM-56, as it was provided by the client.

All recordings (except the RCA 77DX samples, which were made with an outboard 1073 to avoid the application of phantom power - I know, but house rules) were made through the 1081 preamps in the Factory's fine 8048, with the audio taken from the channel direct outs into Digidesign 192 converters at 24 bit, 48kHz.  No EQ was engaged.

Music samples were made exclusively with the CS-1, with quick adjustments made to placement or polar pattern based on what we heard, and no attempt at 'shooting out' with the other mics.  I must emphasize that we were operating under time constraints, so these setups were very quick.

I would also like to thank Mike for giving me the opportunity to participate (and for his patience during setup, which took much longer than it should have!), and would like to echo his comments that the CS-1 is a very fine mic, up there with the best of them, and that it deserves much more time and attention than we were able to give in this case.

[rankus]

I'm glad to see that Mike and Marcel hooked up on this.  The Factory was a much better option for this test than my shack.. glad things worked out for you Mike!

(Mike had contacted me, but I thought he'd be better served by getting together with Marcel... And the Factory room sounds a darned sight better than mine) (The Factory = the old Little Mountain Sound)

[bob ebeling]

I used the CS-1 on an R&B slowjam tonight, stacking the chorus with two different extremely talented females.  I have moved the power supply to my direct right where all important constantly adjusting knobs live.  
The first singer ended up at two clicks towards fig 8. When the second (lead) girl went in it was an immediate swing to 1 click towards omni.  When the producer decided to have her do the bridge, where she really let loose, I did the second take two clicks towards fig 8 (a sweep of 4 clicks from her laid back chorus vocals).  Her high end became piercing on the bridge but I fixed it with those 4 clicks, which took one guess and about 10 seconds.
The pattern selection is crucial to using this mic on vocalists, but I would say you're reallly spoiled if you wouldn't use this mic for vocals (as I've read somewhere on one of these threads).

You can control the body resonance and amount of top with the pattern selection on this mic amazingly well.  If you tried a vocalist, felt it wasn't working, and never took the 20 seconds to try a few clicks, I think you could be missing the element of the CS-1 that makes it a very unique tool for cutting vocals.    

[Silvertone]

bob ebeling wrote on Mon, 13 September 2010 19:51

If you tried a vocalist, felt it wasn't working, and never took the 20 seconds to try a few clicks, I think you could be missing the element of the CS-1 that makes it a very unique tool for cutting vocals.

Agreed 100%... it is many mics in one!

[J.J. Blair]

BTW, pattern selection works on all mics, not just the CS1.  And this idea is even in the manual for the Manley Gold, for many years, as a way to tailor frequency response.  

On multipattern mics, if somebody is too bassy, I'll first go to hypercardoid.  If it's too sibilant or spitty, and I need it darker, I'll go to figure eight.  If I want more air, and less bottom, I'll go omni.  If it's a variable pattern mic, there's always spaces in between.  

There's also adjusting the angle of the mic and using off axis rejection for various problems, or changing the amount of proximity effect.  These techniques work on all microphones, not just the CS1.

[bob ebeling]

Absolutely JJ, but the CS-1 seems to have a much stronger personality change per pattern.  I have made fixes to the situation with other mics via pattern change, usually just evening the top out.

I would submit that because of the reach of the CS-1, changing towards omni is almost required on chesty or low resonance heavy vocalists.  True cardiod is as someone said, 'shooting about two feet down their throat' (that is not the right quote, ha).  I do wish the CS-1 was like the KHE and could be left in cardiod with both capsules on.  It's probably just a compromise though, theoretically.  

I'm curious to know what you've been finding for pattern selection in your drum overhead positions.  Also, I have a ton of experience with UM57's so, if you could draw any differences between the two, I would enjoy the perspective.

I also had an Oliverized UM57 that I suddenly started to use pattern changes on more than before.  Something about the way Oliver tweaks mics outb that gives mics more personality 'around the horn'.

And yes, some of this I'm sure is my growing exposure to working with 10 different vocalists a month rather than 4 per year.  The way the industry and my biz have changed.  In the old days if the mic wasn't immediately happening you just moved down the line to the next and you actually scheduled the first half day to get this right, with certain artists 2 days.

I actually find it less stressy now clicking a knob and getting the result I need, because everytime you work with a new vocalist it's a very touchy situation that you want to run psychologically smoothly and asking people to gear down while you jerk around isn't happening in my world anymore.