R/E/P Community

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 8   Go Down

Author Topic: Tape emulation- ampex 456 at 15 ips  (Read 40310 times)

Signal

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 23
Tape emulation- ampex 456 at 15 ips
« on: August 13, 2004, 03:34:38 PM »

Basically I need to emulate the sound of Ampex 456 tape at 15 ips, it was requested by the artist and I think it's appropriate for the recording, but I do not have access to such facilities. Is there any software based way to simulate this? I dont just mean magneto or something- unless someone knows how to set it up to achieve this kind of sound. Anyone have experience with both analog and digital to help me? ??

I can't go outboard to actual tape, I'm a very knowledgable programmer, I just dont know what kind of physics go into tape "sound".  any helpful discussion of the matter (maybe a tape sim with eq could bring about similar characteristics?)  I really just need someone with enough knowlege of tape physics.  

Thank you all, you're all very kind and knowledgable. =)


-Signal
Logged

bobkatz

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2926
Re: Tape emulation- ampex 456 at 15 ips
« Reply #1 on: August 13, 2004, 04:45:01 PM »

Dear Signal: To my ears, you can get sonic results indistinguishable from analog tape but without the hiss, using the Cranesong HEDD-192 (outboard box). Cranesong has a plugin now, but I have not listened to it or tested it.

As for simulating "456" and "15" versus "30". Use your ears. VERY VERY carefully. The amount that you turn the tape knob affects the saturation effect, and the more you turn it, the more HF saturation you'll have and loss of highs and transients as well. In the HEDD-192, I've done some measuring and "about" a 5 to a 6 setting on the knob is roughly (very roughly) equivalent to 456/15 IPS/400 nW/m= 0 VU= -20 dBFS. But may I use as little as a setting of 0 to 1 on the knob on some projects that only need a "sprinkle" of softening. Do not forget that the tape control IS a compressor, and that you may have to rethink the amount and type of compression you may be using on some instruments. Thus, it is a total recipe; every piece must be considered en toto.

I've heard stories of people trying to use the HEDD during mixing and overdoing it. It is very easy to overdo. Everyone who uses it, even experienced listeners with the finest of monitor systems, starts with a bit too much and then backs it off.

So, even if you like the HEDD and use it, I suggest two things:

a) wait till mastering to apply it


and/or


b) Mix two versions, one with and one without


Warning, if you hear a bit of digititus, then you'll have to upsample to 96 K first!
Logged
There are two kinds of fools,
One says-this is old and therefore good.
The other says-this is new and therefore better."

No trees were killed in the sending of this message. However a large number of
electrons were terribly inconvenienced.

ted nightshade

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1272
Re: Tape emulation- ampex 456 at 15 ips
« Reply #2 on: August 13, 2004, 07:25:53 PM »

I'm a fan of 15 ips 456 and of the HEDD, but I never was able to get up the nerve to wilfully introduce as much "tape" effect as Bob describes- 5 to 6 on the knob- exactly where in that range is very significant! Well, hardly ever. I found I got a significantly higher amount of resolution working with 456 than using the HEDD process.

YMMV, a lot, and could be the artist would be happy with something else than 15 ips 456 if it pleased him as much.
Logged
Ted Nightshade aka Cowan

There's a sex industry too.
Or maybe you prefer home cookin'?

Erik

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 231
Re: Tape emulation- ampex 456 at 15 ips
« Reply #3 on: August 13, 2004, 09:18:19 PM »

There's no software at present that does anything like that.

For less than the cost of a plug-in you can rent, beg, or borrow a tape machine for a couple days.  Is that really not a possibility?

--Erik
Logged
Erik Gavriluk, Bomb Factory Recording Studios
"The modern trouble is not the use of machinery, but the abuse of it." --Gustav Stickley, 1909

electrical

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 674
Re: Tape emulation- ampex 456 at 15 ips
« Reply #4 on: August 14, 2004, 12:24:32 AM »

I am depressed by the unspoken assumptions in this question and in all the responses (save Erik's -- Dios Mio!) so far.

There is a presumption in the minds of digital recording engineers that "tape" or worse yet, "the analog" has "a sound," and that that specific sound can be had somehow, other than by recording on tape.

Hooey.

The underlying presumption that this sound can be imagined and then modeled and then applied is so completely baseless that we are now on the fourth (tenth?) generation of simulation devices and software, as if the persistent attempts and failures weren't enough to demonstrate the chimerical absurdity of the task.

I have been using tape machines of all stripes every damn day for several decades now, and I'd like to think that I listen carefully and pay attention, but try as I might, I cannot come up with a specific set of artifacts that I can attribute to tape alone. Every tape machine sounds different. Every playback chain sounds different. Every use or abuse of tape sounds different. Sometimes every damn snare drum hit sounds different.

Take something as "simple" as tape "compression" (saturation), a touchstone of the "we can simulate it" crowd. I never operate tape machines in saturation, and having done extensive experiments, have concluded that it almost always sounds "like shit." Of the things I like about analog tape, I like most that what I record on it comes back sounding pretty much like the source.

I would argue that the majority of all great records recorded in the analog era were recorded by trained, careful engineers who would also avoid saturation, yet "tape compression" is often cited by the inexperienced as a reason those records sound good, not the more complicated, less encouraging truth: That everyone involved was good at his job, and there was no magic -- no "secret."

I consider the search for synthetic "tape compression" to be an attempt to emulate a failure mode, and an unworthy effort, albeit one with a lot of gullible clients.

Properly-working analog tape machines are not magic boxes that make bad sounds good. I know, because I've been able to record a lot of bad sounds. They are also complex systems, with many interwoven design and practical compromises, all of which will affect the recorded (or played-back) sound. There is simply nothing that can be derived (in such a way that you could put a knob on a device and have less or more of "the sound") that will do it.

Not only is there no single "sound" to shoot for, the number of variables involved makes simulating the system itself a rat's nest of individual problems to solve, even if there were a target to shoot at.

Tape stock, head gap, head wear, bias level and frequency, bias depth, HF headroom / self-bias, print-through and absolute level are all interacting variables, as are the topology of the input and output electronics, damping from upstream- or downstream sources and loads on those electronics, record EQ emphasis, out-of-band partials...

I'm not suggesting that tape is magic -- far from it. I'm saying that analog systems are different from digital ones, and you shouldn't attribute to one or the other a magical quality that will get you out of the weeds. Use real, definable effects to describe your perceived sound and then work from a basis of problem solving.

If what you want is compression, then by all means use compression. If what you want is distortion, then by all means... You get the idea. If you want to try one of these combination distortion/compression boxes that purports to have "the analog sound," be my guest, but you shouldn't carry on with the delusion that what you're getting is based on the sound of tape.

Analog systems have noise and distortion, sure. Small, generally insignificant amounts of both. Operated like a baboon, you can even saturate or distort them. These specific, individual defects can be simulated, but they are not why analog tape is used. Reliable, good sound and permanence are why, among other more involved reasons.

Let's say you see a real fast car, and notice that it has dents in its fender. You go home and dent your Rambler, thinking that will make it go faster, and are disappointed. I suggest that the attempts at simulating "tape sound" have it exactly that wrong.
Logged
best,

steve albini
Electrical Audio
sa at electrical dot com
www.electrical.com

gtoledo3

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 172
Re: Tape emulation- ampex 456 at 15 ips
« Reply #5 on: August 14, 2004, 01:41:10 AM »

Steve gets post of the week award!

My favorite albums done on tape are not grungy or saturated at all- they are 3 dimensional and clear as a bell.

Logged

ted nightshade

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1272
Re: Tape emulation- ampex 456 at 15 ips
« Reply #6 on: August 14, 2004, 01:46:10 AM »

electrical wrote on Fri, 13 August 2004 21:24

I am depressed by the unspoken assumptions in this question and in all the responses (save Erik's -- Dios Mio!) so far.

There is a presumption in the minds of digital recording engineers that "tape" or worse yet, "the analog" has "a sound," and that that specific sound can be had somehow, other than by recording on tape.



Not an assumption, or presumption, in my mind- I've been recording to digital for some weeks now too, having found something I like more than my rather nice pet tape machine.

I posted that something else might make the artist as happy. Could be something other than any kind of tape. Lotsa tools out there. For me it turned out that SLAM! was preferable to tape, and no tape artifacts are mimicked there. I don't use the limiting FWIW.
Quote:


If what you want is compression, then by all means use compression. If what you want is distortion, then by all means... You get the idea. If you want to try one of these combination distortion/compression boxes that purports to have "the analog sound," be my guest, but you shouldn't carry on with the delusion that what you're getting is based on the sound of tape.


Or you might want harmonic generation, which acts a kind of compressor but not the usual kind, in which case you might want to check out a HEDD. I prefer the results of nice tube mics into the SLAM!, with the transformer into the DAC giving things a touch of harmonic zing, and most crucially (!) finding really harmonically live places to put mics to begin with. Also, not losing the harmonics anywhere along the way- so easy to do. The business of mic placement and care not to lose things are places where it might turn out a different engineer can get as good or better but different of results by a different method than that speed and make of tape.

Personally as an artist I wouldn't care how they get there, but take whatever reference made me drool for 15 ips 456 and insist on meeting or beating the overall effect by whatever means are at hand.
Logged
Ted Nightshade aka Cowan

There's a sex industry too.
Or maybe you prefer home cookin'?

bobkatz

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2926
Re: Tape emulation- ampex 456 at 15 ips
« Reply #7 on: August 14, 2004, 10:05:48 PM »

ted nightshade wrote on Fri, 13 August 2004 19:25

I'm a fan of 15 ips 456 and of the HEDD, but I never was able to get up the nerve to wilfully introduce as much "tape" effect as Bob describes- 5 to 6 on the knob- exactly where in that range is very significant!




Oh, absolutely. Sorry if I didn't make it clear. Though my measurements seem to show a degree of equivalency between tape of 5 to 6 and 456, it would take a pretty grungy, ugly recording to "need" something like that setting, and it would be like putting makeup on an acne-faced teenager to cover it up. Not a cure, just a bandaid, for sure.

Quote:



Well, hardly ever. I found I got a significantly higher amount of resolution working with 456 than using the HEDD process.




I've never done the A/B in a scientific manner. Is there anyone else who feels that tape is audibly superior to the HEDD (at 96 ks/s). A little bit of HEDD goes a long way, and a little bit retains much of the quality of the source, to my ears (0 to 3 on the knob). But there are other ways to achieve the effect you may be looking for.  Oftimes I use a bit of high frequency selective compression (with the Weiss) on a source which needs it, and no HEDD at all. It allows greater control of the "threshold", and acts more like a dynamic equalizer.
Logged
There are two kinds of fools,
One says-this is old and therefore good.
The other says-this is new and therefore better."

No trees were killed in the sending of this message. However a large number of
electrons were terribly inconvenienced.

ted nightshade

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1272
Re: Tape emulation- ampex 456 at 15 ips
« Reply #8 on: August 14, 2004, 10:23:53 PM »

Possibly we're talking about different things? I'm thinking you, Bob, are talking mastering, and I'm talking tracking. I don't doubt that using the HEDD is superior most times to doing the D/A/D to bounce to tape and back. But tracking to tape is a whole different thing.

I found that tracking to 456, 15 ips, and then leaving it alone seemed higher resolution than tracking to 456, 15 ips, and using the HEDD process at 96k, or tracking to digital and using the HEDD process at 96k during tracking or playback.

I also tried things like tracking to digital via the HEDD converters (no process) and then dumping it onto analog tape. My conclusion was that tracking to tape and then transfer to digital was much preferable to tracking to digital via HEDD (no process) and then transfer to tape.

As far as the original topic, I'm thinking the HEDD is a very fine tube'n'tape simulation that allows many subtle or radical effects, but it's no substitute for tracking to tape, and I agree with Steve that tape can be very clean when used conscientiously. Perhaps a different tape simulation would be a different story? I guess it's possible...
Logged
Ted Nightshade aka Cowan

There's a sex industry too.
Or maybe you prefer home cookin'?

bobkatz

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2926
Re: Tape emulation- ampex 456 at 15 ips
« Reply #9 on: August 15, 2004, 09:42:15 AM »

On a similar subject...  we could change the topic name...

Well, one thing that I say to my clients when they ask whether they should track to tape or digital and mix to tape or digital....    "If your project seems to need some of that "analog tape sound", consider either tracking to analog tape and mixing to high res digital, or the reverse." We don't see too many projects these days that were tracked to analog tape and then mixed to analog tape, but quite often when I do hear them I feel they probably went too far....  Regardless, if you do track to analog tape, I suggest simultaneous mixing to 1/2" and high res digital for a critical comparison later.

BK
Logged
There are two kinds of fools,
One says-this is old and therefore good.
The other says-this is new and therefore better."

No trees were killed in the sending of this message. However a large number of
electrons were terribly inconvenienced.

Fletcher

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3016
Re: Tape emulation- ampex 456 at 15 ips
« Reply #10 on: August 15, 2004, 11:48:48 AM »

While I entirely agree with Mr. Albini's post and observations... I have also observed that the "Tape" knob on the HEDD-192 and Crane Song LTD. "Spider" add a similar vibe as 456 at 30ips on an MM-1200... now, I can't quantify that observation with the written word... but, the things I do with stuff like level, and the sound that comes back to me after employing that knob reminds me in no small way of what I used to get from 456 at 30 on an MM-1200... which also leads me to kinda question the original post as 456, for that matter pretty much every formulation, sounded different on different machines... in other words it wasn't the sound of the "tape" per se, but the sound of the tape as it worked with certain machines that gave the net result of an overall tone and vibe...

As always... YMMV
Logged
CN Fletcher

mwagener wrote on Sat, 11 September 2004 14:33
We are selling emotions, there are no emotions in a grid


"Recording engineers are an arrogant bunch.  
If you've spent most of your life with a few thousand dollars worth of musicians in the studio, making a decision every second and a half... and you and  they are going to have to live with it for the rest of your lives, you'll get pretty arrogant too.  It takes a certain amount of balls to do that... something around three"
Malcolm Chisholm

mcsnare

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 958
Re: Tape emulation- ampex 456 at 15 ips
« Reply #11 on: August 15, 2004, 12:04:05 PM »

Buy the Cranesong Phoenix analog simulation plug-in immediately. I think it's the best thing available for tape simulation in a DAW environment. It's more controlable than the tape process knob on the Hedd and Spider, and requires very little cpu so you can use it on many tracks. No, it won't make ProTools sound like an Ampex with 456 @ 15IPS, but I think it's the closest thing at the moment.
Dave McNair

electrical

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 674
Re: Tape emulation- ampex 456 at 15 ips
« Reply #12 on: August 15, 2004, 01:34:24 PM »

ted nightshade wrote on Sat, 14 August 2004 22:23


As far as the original topic, I'm thinking the HEDD is a very fine tube'n'tape simulation...


Come on now. What does that mean? What do you mean by "tube'n'tape simulation?"

Seriously, what does that ridiculous statement mean? Is it adding distortion? Compression? EQ? Wow and flutter? Noise? A bass boost? A treble cut? Transient softening? Transient-induced ringing? The sound of an un-decoded Dolby recording? What?

Honestly, when you think to yourself, "I really need a tube'n'tape simulation here," What exact effect are you after?

People say things like this all the time, and I honestly don't know what the hell they're talking about, and if we have to take this sort of discussion seriously, then I would like to learn.
Logged
best,

steve albini
Electrical Audio
sa at electrical dot com
www.electrical.com

electrical

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 674
Re: Tape emulation- ampex 456 at 15 ips
« Reply #13 on: August 15, 2004, 01:44:34 PM »

bobkatz wrote on Sun, 15 August 2004 09:42

We don't see too many projects these days that were tracked to analog tape and then mixed to analog tape, but quite often when I do hear them I feel they probably went too far....


So... almost every record ever made in the century before ProTools "went too far" with "the tape sound?" Is that right? They were almost all bad because of tape recording?

And every record I've ever done, was actually "overdone" with the tape? Because of "the sound of tape?"

Do I have it right?
Logged
best,

steve albini
Electrical Audio
sa at electrical dot com
www.electrical.com

maarvold

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 853
Re: Tape emulation- ampex 456 at 15 ips
« Reply #14 on: August 16, 2004, 10:07:06 PM »

Quote:

Buy the Cranesong Phoenix analog simulation plug-in immediately...


I agree.  I downloaded the Phoenix demo and I'm using it quite a bit on the way-too-brittle synth sounds (shakers, pads, bells, sparkley stuff) on a budget project I'm mixing.  It seems to carve off some of the transient 'ice' and add a nice sense of body without any bloating.  
Logged
Michael Aarvold
Audio Engineer
Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 8   Go Up
 

Site Hosted By Ashdown Technologies, Inc.

Page created in 0.053 seconds with 21 queries.