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[breathe]

I had just got into college when all this Auto-Tune, PT over editing, crappy ass sound shit was dominating the airwaves.  I bought a PT Mix Plus system with an Apogee AD-8000 in 2000 and didn't find God with it until I started mixing analog.  It's been a long struggle.  I got into tape recording as a backlash from my issues with the CRAPPY ASS sounding PT Mix Plus system, then got into the Tascam MX-2424 then Samplitude with Lynx converters, now PT HD3 with Apogees mixing analog into a Burl.  I feel like I am hifi now.  I feel like I am making real recordings.  I am arrogant enough to say I know what's up with fidelity and I feel the last ten years have been the worst years fidelity-wise in the history of music recordings.  But things are changing.  Pro Tools HD, mixed analog with good converters, sounds good.  You can now buy brand new gear based on older designs and some new designs that sounds awesome.  I feel we are out of the dark ages now.  I want to strike a dagger in the heart of the "lo-fi" aesthetic that my music community has embraced in my young adulthood as a reaction to the completely bullshit "hi-fi" of the major labels that has sounded like shit for 15 years.

Nicholas

[tom eaton]

Gear, gear, gear.  I think you are confused.

If the you now could go back and make records using the crap you had then you'd make much better sounding records than you did.

We change, adapt, grow and learn.  

You might want to apologize to all of us who might be a bit older than you who apparently have not made a good sounding record in your adult life.  After all, who do you think shaped your aesthetic of what sounds good in the first place?

Would it be pointless to mention the great engineers who have made great sounding records for their entire careers?  

For the past 10 years at least I have been mixing analog from a DAW multitrack.  Welcome to the club, I guess... but you should know it's a big, big club and many of its members are responsible for records you apparently think suck.

tom

[Fletcher]

Tom - all due respect -- 99% of the stuff on commercial radio has been produced [and sounds] like total crap for the last 10+ years... on the other hand, there has been some pretty amazing stuff I've heard on college radio and through my kids... but not that many folks listen to college radio or the music their kids find interesting.

I have this fantasy about beating the inventor of "autotune" tune to death with the initial creator of the "Line 6 amp simulator".  Line 6 product is all over every music store I have been in for the last I don't know how many years... 10+ I think.  They build amps with simulation of other amps... none of them good.  

Add to that "bazillion track capability" and you get some seriously "over produced" and way under engineered records that flood our world but aren't worth buying [but hey, so they're not worth buying, but they can be downloaded at the push of a few buttons] and you have the recipe for the "perfect shit storm" that has nashed budgets to the point where people are now almost forced to employ sub-standard crap for mass consumption that will never get consumed... coupled with the "democratization" of audio where any butt reaming asshole can hang out a shingle as a "recording studio" with an LE system [great for writing demos, on par with a Tascam 38 in terms of "fidelity"] and some "treatment" bullshit hanging on the wall so their room almost looks like a studio.

While I agreed with everything you said... unfortunately, the reality I have experienced has not permitted me nearly as much enjoyment from musical product as might have been afforded when the FCC still had the "rule of 7" [no media outlet can own more than one station in any given market, on only 7 nationally (in the US)].

That "rule of 7" brought "network affiliated" [but not controlled] media outlets who sometimes actually programmed decent music.

In NY you had WNEW and WLIR [both gone], Boston, WBCN [also gone, though they should have stuck a fork in it 10-15 years earlier than they did].  I was lucky, I was exposed to all kinds of musical brilliance through "free form" radio... but with few college exceptions, that just doesn't exist anymore.  

...and if you think radio is a serious dearth in the US... try listening to the radio in Europe!!!  From what I've heard, your options are "classic <sub>shit" and "techno" [with news and information thrown in for good measure... and with the exception of the BBC new station which is similar to America's "NPR"... the news I've been able to decipher could have come from Faux News and Rupert Mudoch's machine without a struggle!!].

/rant

Peace.</sub>

[plughead]

IMO,

Who REALLY has been listening to radio these past 10 yrs? Certainly not me, and unless you're in your car waiting for traffic updates, or in a workplace where you have NO choice as to what the 'powers at be' dictate dial-wise - NOBODY I know listens to radio.

Tho I grew up canuck side of Motown, we used to listen to radio incessantly as youngsters. Even into teen/adulthood. But somewhere along the line, I realized that nothing I really WANTED to hear was being spun over the airwaves, save for a FEW stations (WDET was one...) and college/university radio otherwise.

Fidelity is one thing, but - as I progress further and further into life (and old age) I realized that I personally care about fidelity, but - interesting and appealing performances (or assembly of ideas) will ALWAYS trump fidelity (IMO). Tho I strive for good (great) sound, I will always accept lower fidelity standards IF the artist/material is COMPELLING. If not, I will revert to fidelity as a benchmark.

Modern recordings have often left us 'seekers' empty for the main reason that - the artist(s) has fuck all to say, musically or intellectually, and we're sick of formulaic pap. The clincher is - that 'music' is the mainstay of commercial radio programming.

I'd gladly be a part of something that is viewed as a commercial 'flop', but has high artistic merit. BUT - I don't think I could stomach working on shit that is composed/recorded/engineered/marketed strictly for mass consumption - to me, it feels like that is the antithesis of why I got involved first as a musician, and secondly into AE/production as a career...

my .02 c

[tom eaton]

Hey Fletcher-

I agree that plenty of crap has been released, and it is easily available.  Blame the internet for that.  I was in a used record store last week and you know what?  Tons and tons of "bad" music was put out on vinyl.  Really, tons. Maybe most of it was regional, or local, but there it was.  It's in your local used shop, too.  Lately more inexperienced people are making more music, and the cost of entry is lower than it has ever been, but it's the quantity and availability that's new, not the "bad" music.  Obviously the majors have changed, as number crunchers became more powerful than music fans, and, yes, the media monopolies are part of the demise for sure.


Nicholas tends to equate everything he hears with the gear used to make it.  That was my point.  It's as if he forgets that people are involved.  To suggest that the bad sound of ProTools ruined radio is beyond simplistic and completely ignorant of the reality of both music making and the music business.


WBCN lost me in the 80's.  FNX never did anything for me, unfortunately.  I stopped relying on radio for new music years ago (1987?), preferring to let trusted record labels do filtering for me.  Or hear about new things from friends and clients... or just follow artist to artist connections (Genesis leads to Peter Gabriel leads to Paula Cole etc.)

tom

[Jim Williams]

As with anything, only the top 10% is worth anything. The rest is crap.

Then you need to ask yourself: Am I part of the 10% or am I surrounded by crap?

[mixwell]

What we need here is "smmmuuuooooth music"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jMTI8vg7A5U

[Adam The Truck Driver]

Nothing better to do, and I am a child of the '70s. I watched all 12 episodes. Thanks Adam. I needed a good laugh.

[Edvaard]

The OP's commentary was more about the sonics of the recording process and the blayback, whatever the music.


Good music (by your, my, or someone else's tastes), and sonically good recordings (the two not always coinciding) have been made the entire time, from way back when till now. But the issue seems to be how difficult it is to obtain enjoyment in either capacity by just "tuning in" anymore. What used to be not too difficult to obtain, amidst the concomitant sonic and aesthetic abominations, from way back when till now, has in the last 15 years or so become an utter chore.

As to the original post, I think that one point being made is that sonics and technical capabilities -as artistic tools-, that being in vogue from the 60's onwards (with a few notable precursors much earlier), have taken a dive in the time frame referred to, in terms of both ultimate sonics and ultimate aesthetics.

Please note the distinction.


MP3 and autotune as playback and recording accommodation tools, such as they are, is one thing. Being invoked into the aesthetic is quite another.


We are being double-whammied here.


 

[kats]

Personally I think the opposite is true. I think the pursuit of perfect sound for individual elements of a song has trumped everything! I mean I hear amazingly thunderous bass drums, chugging egtrs that push loads of air, everything punchy and slamming, every element has it's spaced carved out for itself... It's amazing what can be done sound wise and how far we've taken that skill set.

The issue in my mind is that sound has become more important than performance in that the willingness to compromise performance for sound is at an all time high.

What I think what we miss, when comparing to the past, is listening to great sounding bands as opposed to great sounding mixes.  

[plughead]

kats wrote on Thu, 05 August 2010 10:06

What I think what we miss, when comparing to the past, is listening to great sounding bands as opposed to great sounding mixes.

IV I

[Edward Vinatea]

I usually try to stay away from sound quality disputes, but PT Mix with 888/24 gave me great results in the late ninety's and contrary to what the OP stated it is not crap. I think that engineering {with any equipment that meets pro specs} trumps over gear. I remember about one audio test I posted at a Gearslutz thread, where 2 audio clips: one, a famous artist mastered by a well known ME, and the other, the same recording but remastered by me and processed with a PT Mix and the 888/24 to make my point more poignant.

The whole point to the test was to prove that with narrow band compression, it was easy to correct with certain amount of precision and less signal degradation, any frequency anomalies found in mixes/masters. Needless to say that everyone got it wrong. After their A/B review, no one was able to hear the frequencies that I had corrected. Instead, they all agreed that the original master recording sounded overall better and that my clip had actually "degraded the quality of the master".

The problem they encountered, at the end of this hearing exercise, was that the clip they believed was the "original" recording was actually MY sample master and not the other way around. Then, I was accused by some of rigging the test to make myself look right. Thank God that as a precaution prior to posting the test thread itself, I had given the results to the moderator Jay {the only stand up moderator at that mastering forum}.

To me it was interesting to discover how much poor/false information really runs through web forums, especially in regards to gear or its capabilities.  But, the most telling aspect was to discover how many people come to Gearslutz to make blanket statements and to argue over things when they themselves can't even hear OBVIOUS changes in sound quality.

So my final thought is, if it works for you, use it, and try to stay away from sound quality discussions on most gear unless you have irrefutable proof to the contrary {A/B samples usually}.

Regards,

Edward

[Otitis Media]

And what kind of recording/mixing/editing/mastering work has been done in the week + this thread has dragged on?

I've been pretty productive with my PTLE rig, and while it's no large frame console and tape machine, let alone racks and racks of signal processing, I'm somehow pleased with the results, and they're already airing.