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Author Topic: What Would Be Today's State-of-the Art Analog Recorder?  (Read 22163 times)

Jay Kadis

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Re: What Would Be Today's State-of-the Art Analog Recorder?
« Reply #30 on: June 30, 2010, 11:48:16 AM »

I don't see analog as inherently better than sampled audio.  If we look at analog tape, we find it is in fact a quantized medium: domains are finite in number and it is only on a human scale that they appear to be continuous.  While we can minimize the non-linearities by using bias current and tape manufacturing techniques, there is a theoretical limit to the signal-to-noise and distortion performance of analog tape.  It might sound good to us now, but that could just be due to our history of using analog systems and our familiarity with its sound and associated techniques.

Digital or quantized systems in theory can produce better results in terms of noise and distortion.  Early such systems did not come close to that potential but current systems  get much closer.  With continued research and development, digital recording systems will eventually replace analog because they will just sound better.  We are not going back to analog recording because fundamentally it has more severe physical limitations than digitized approaches and there do not seem to be any major analog medium breakthroughs on the horizon.

Barry Hufker

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Re: What Would Be Today's State-of-the Art Analog Recorder?
« Reply #31 on: June 30, 2010, 01:12:01 PM »

Those are important issues Jay, but not the question.

Analog recording is only "quantized" on magnetic tape and not in other media, such as vinyl or optical film tracks.  I'm not saying those are better.  I'm saying there are many other types of analog recording media which are untapped.

And the future of digital recording/media is certainly assured.

What sounds good, *is* good and the better system will prevail.

The question here remains the same.  What would today's state of the art analog recorder be?  So far, FM recording seems to be the best (and most practical) idea but I'd love to see another medium rather than tape.

I'm hearing a lot of negatives and only a few have really stretched their imaginations and the possibilities.  There are people making audio analog recordings on computer floppy drives.  You can find those videos on the web.  But what else can be done?  There is so much more I'm sure.  And arguably, the best digital recorder today is the player piano (but of course only for the piano).

What would today's best analog recorder be??
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Jay Kadis

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Re: What Would Be Today's State-of-the Art Analog Recorder?
« Reply #32 on: June 30, 2010, 01:21:47 PM »

Barry Hufker wrote on Wed, 30 June 2010 10:12

Those are important issues Jay, but not the question.

Analog recording is only "quantized" on magnetic tape and not in other media.


Not so, unfortunately.  Vinyl consists of particles of PVC of varying sizes, but there are finite dimensions below which we have indivisible units.  Again, it's just that the size is so small it appears to us to be continuous.  We rely on averaging in analog media just like we do in digital ones.

There just aren't any superior new analog media available or we would be using them.  The pinnacle of analog is one or another of the existing analog systems - engineering has gone just about as far as it can in the analog domain.  Certainly as far as we will go, anyway, as there's just not a sufficient demand for it.

Barry Hufker

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Re: What Would Be Today's State-of-the Art Analog Recorder?
« Reply #33 on: June 30, 2010, 01:37:16 PM »

Obviously (and sincerely) your knowledge of materials is superior to mine, although I think at some point it is splitting hairs when it comes to materials composition.

Here is a quote I just was led to.  I think it summarizes my current thought on this subject.

"People fail to reach their potential as professionals, lovers, parents and people simply because they are not aware of the possible."

I don't believe "everyone knows analog recording so well that all important/good possibilities have been exhausted".  I believe people have exhausted what they know about analog recording but not what is possible.  And maybe they aren't interested in looking any further, but I don't think analog recording has reached its pinnacle or anywhere near it.

EDIT: "Certainly as far as we will go, anyway, as there's just not a sufficient demand for it."

Don't worry about sufficient demand for it.  That implies commercialization.  I'm not concerned about that.  I want to know what the best possible analog recorder could be.

Barry

EDIT: OK, I'm led to a tangent but it is an important one.  Once upon a time in America people did research.  They did it to find out what might happen when "A" was put with "B".  That's all they wanted to know.  But then research changed.  It became goal oriented and now people only want to know what will happen to A meeting B if there is the possibility that a practical goal will be reached.  Well, I'm doing the first type of research.  I don't care if a practical goal is achieved.  I want to imagine.  I want to explore.  I want to know just for the sake of knowing.

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Jay Kadis

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Re: What Would Be Today's State-of-the Art Analog Recorder?
« Reply #34 on: June 30, 2010, 01:56:04 PM »

OK, Barry, how about light?  It seems it is possible to store photons by stopping their motion and later restoring it:

http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/2001/01.24/01-stoplight. html

All you need is an appropriate crystal lattice and a ton of further engineering.

PS: If you think there's much left in analog magnetic recording technology, have a look at:

Mee and Daniel - Magnetic Recording Handbook

Bertram - Theory of Magnetic Recording

Analog magnetic recording is a mature technology - there just isn't anything left in the way of a big potential breakthrough unless the rules of physics change.

Barry Hufker

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Re: What Would Be Today's State-of-the Art Analog Recorder?
« Reply #35 on: June 30, 2010, 03:25:48 PM »

Light is good I suppose.  I'm thinking there are many other materials which could serve the purpose.  I wonder what could be done with ceramics, glass, paper to name a few.  With regard to light (other than photons themselves), I wonder what lasers might do.  I wonder what might be done with carbon nanotubes.  I wonder what might be done with graphite.  Somewhere there is a technology which could be twisted (employed) into analog recording.  And it could be a huge jump from where we are.

No, I don't think there is much more advancement in magnetic recording and have said so several times throughout this thread.  But I do think there could be *some* advancement.  For instance when it comes to wow and flutter/speed variation, I think it would be great to build a head/circuit (on a conventional recorder) which recorded the bias signal (on tape) as a timing signal.  This timing signal would be part of the DC servo loop to make measurable speed variation a thing of the past for all modern reel to reel recording.  

This is a small example as to what I'm looking for.  I'm hoping to reach something better altogether.

Barry
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dcollins

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Re: What Would Be Today's State-of-the Art Analog Recorder?
« Reply #36 on: June 30, 2010, 03:52:08 PM »

Barry Hufker wrote on Wed, 30 June 2010 12:25


I think it would be great to build a head/circuit (on a conventional recorder) which recorded the bias signal (on tape) as a timing signal.  This timing signal would be part of the DC servo loop to make measurable speed variation a thing of the past for all modern reel to reel recording.  



This is already done in FM instrumentation recorders and is described in the Camras book, iirc.


DC

compasspnt

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Re: What Would Be Today's State-of-the Art Analog Recorder?
« Reply #37 on: June 30, 2010, 04:05:40 PM »

Barry Hufker wrote on Wed, 30 June 2010 13:12

...only a few have really stretched their imaginations and the possibilities....



Then how about if we can record analogically into the leaves of a small tree.

Then we could grow all the safety copies we needed.
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Barry Hufker

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Re: What Would Be Today's State-of-the Art Analog Recorder?
« Reply #38 on: June 30, 2010, 06:30:59 PM »

dcollins wrote on Wed, 30 June 2010 14:52

Barry Hufker wrote on Wed, 30 June 2010 12:25


I think it would be great to build a head/circuit (on a conventional recorder) which recorded the bias signal (on tape) as a timing signal.  This timing signal would be part of the DC servo loop to make measurable speed variation a thing of the past for all modern reel to reel recording.  



This is already done in FM instrumentation recorders and is described in the Camras book, iirc.


DC

That's wonderful.  I wonder why it hasn't ever been done for a professional audio (music) recorder.  It seems like something which is long overdue.  Is wow and flutter an analog recorder's biggest problem?  I don't know but it would certainly make it no longer an issue.

@ Terry.  I think trees would be great.  Goodness knows we have enough nuts around here for each tree (and that would include me).

The analogy of a tree tho' is a great idea for recording.  In some ways it strikes me as the idea behind RAID drives -- information distributed over several machines (leaves) which can be grown (added) and "lost" (removed).  See Terry, you're a genius.  Now just come up with more stuff like this -- and sooner!!

Barry

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compasspnt

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Re: What Would Be Today's State-of-the Art Analog Recorder?
« Reply #39 on: June 30, 2010, 08:17:47 PM »

Actually, it was not a joke.
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Larrchild

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Re: What Would Be Today's State-of-the Art Analog Recorder?
« Reply #40 on: June 30, 2010, 08:54:52 PM »

dcollins wrote on Wed, 30 June 2010 15:52



This is already done in FM instrumentation recorders and is described in the Camras book, iirc.


DC

What if I want to add a singer?
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Larry Janus
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Barry Hufker

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Re: What Would Be Today's State-of-the Art Analog Recorder?
« Reply #41 on: June 30, 2010, 09:19:01 PM »

@ Terry: I know.  And I didn't take it that way.  It's a clever thought obviously.

@Larchild: Sewing Machine?


Barry

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John Monforte

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Re: What Would Be Today's State-of-the Art Analog Recorder?
« Reply #42 on: July 01, 2010, 01:50:37 AM »

As an answer to that very (original) question, I was commissioned to make a one inch two track recorder. Huge dynamic range, wide frequency response, low distortion. Also expensive to make and use, but if you want to take available analog technology to its limits, I don't know of anything that can compare in either sonics or specs.

So far I have made three of them.
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meverylame

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Re: What Would Be Today's State-of-the Art Analog Recorder?
« Reply #43 on: July 01, 2010, 02:49:39 AM »

John Monforte wrote on Thu, 01 July 2010 01:50

As an answer to that very (original) question, I was commissioned to make a one inch two track recorder. Huge dynamic range, wide frequency response, low distortion. Also expensive to make and use, but if you want to take available analog technology to its limits, I don't know of anything that can compare in either sonics or specs.

So far I have made three of them.

The JH-110D, John? Looked incredible.
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Jason Kingsland

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dcollins

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Re: What Would Be Today's State-of-the Art Analog Recorder?
« Reply #44 on: July 01, 2010, 02:24:45 PM »

Larrchild wrote on Wed, 30 June 2010 17:54

dcollins wrote on Wed, 30 June 2010 15:52



This is already done in FM instrumentation recorders and is described in the Camras book, iirc.


DC

What if I want to add a singer?



Forget it.


DC
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