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Author Topic: analog trade-offs  (Read 39122 times)

Bob Olhsson

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Re: analog trade-offs
« Reply #60 on: January 16, 2011, 11:48:10 am »

A "wow" reaction is often short for "wow, it sounds so real!"

I fear that people who have never experienced "real" aren't likely to be very impressed.

Fenris Wulf

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Re: analog trade-offs
« Reply #61 on: January 17, 2011, 12:22:31 am »

kats wrote on Sun, 16 January 2011 16:34

Studio Economik in Montreal might still have  one for sale. I passed on it because people I know who own then told me that they were very unreliable. H

With MCI's it depends on the model.
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Eric H.

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Re: analog trade-offs
« Reply #62 on: January 17, 2011, 06:44:11 am »

This topic never grows old.
As far as I'm concerned, whatever the system is, I believe one cannot rely on memory for comparisons of one system to another.
It has to be in the same conditions, which also means at the same time.
It's like when you have a glorious memory of a concert and then, a few years later you go and hear it and it's not very good at all.
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eric harizanos

Silvertone

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Re: analog trade-offs
« Reply #63 on: January 17, 2011, 08:19:53 am »

I keep stuff from the 1" 8 track analog on the system all the time to show clients.  Keep in mind this is transfered into PT's at 24/96K.  Usually they can't believe the depth of the analog... they comment on how they can "feel" the bass and kick drum.  Switch over to the exact same digital mix and sure you can hear the bass and kick but you certainly do not feel it the same way.  The other comment I hear is how 3D the analog sounds, they put their hands up like they can touch the sound.

So I don't have to go off memory... I live it and breath it everyday.  Digital is great but analog still has a "one up" on it that will not go away... yet.

I had a couple engineers over yesterday that wanted to hear the Lucas CS-1 and CS4 mics (they loved them) but I was playing them this analog stuff and both engineers commented how they were sick of "fighting" digital and really missed what analog gave them.  I had to agree.  When recorded properly (and the same), analog wins out still in my book.

As for the film analogy,  I've used that for many, many years... film softens the edges (transients) and blurs the picture a little (magnetic tape),  just like our brain does with the real world... put a little cheese cloth over the lens (compression) and you get a euphoric effect.  I think it's why we still prefer it over the cold stark reality that is digital... we want a softer, gentler world to live in... I know I do.
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Larry DeVivo
Silvertone Mastering, Inc.
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To see some of our work please click on any of the visual trailer montages located at... http://robertetoll.com/  (all music and sound effects were mastered by Silvertone Mastering).

Eric H.

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Re: analog trade-offs
« Reply #64 on: January 17, 2011, 09:33:33 am »

I wish I had the chance to compare like you do.
I confess that I never worked with analog multitrack.
Unfortunately, analog recording disappeared a few years before I started to do it. Only tape i know is the k7 4 track and the 1/4 inch 4 track. Not really what you would call good analog designs.
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eric harizanos

MagnetoSound

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Re: analog trade-offs
« Reply #65 on: January 17, 2011, 09:36:55 am »


Only tape i know is the k7 4 track and the 1/4 inch 4 track.


What is a k7?


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yanik

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Re: analog trade-offs
« Reply #66 on: January 17, 2011, 09:51:29 am »

MagnetoSound wrote on Mon, 17 January 2011 09:36


What is a k7?



I'm guessing cassette, sept (pronounced set) being french for seven.
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OOF!

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Re: analog trade-offs
« Reply #67 on: January 17, 2011, 10:13:45 am »

I've ben doing this for a looong time, but the other night had yet another one of those jaw-dropping revelations that was also incredibly discouraging for both me, as the owner of the studio/gear, and the artist who was having his music recorded.
I was recording directly to 1/2" tape thru the console and multing to the computer as well.  Once again, the difference was not only dramatic, it was heartbreaking.  We've all just gotten used to the sound of digital and appreciate its convenience.  I am using "hi-quality" converters (name starts with "A") but the sound coming off the tape machine was just so much better in every way.  The digital version sounded awful as we switched back and forth.  Interestingly, after I transferred the analog mixes thru the Korg DSD recorder, the sound quality was almost fully retained.  Yes, we could pick the two apart, but the difference was both subtle and totally acceptable. (Someone develop a multitrack DSD machine!)
My workflow and space limitations do not allow for me to run a 24 tack machine, although I would buy one tomorrow if i was only doing records.  So what is the answer?  I've worked on RADARs before and thought it sounded pretty darn good., but have not A/B'd directly with other converters- which, with my poor memory, I must do.  Are there converters that retain more of the sound or is it really just the nature of PCM conversion that fails to capture it fully?  It's not that analog adds anything, it's just that digital fails to capture it.  Getting the DSD really opened my eyes (ears) to this.
David
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Tidewater

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Re: analog trade-offs
« Reply #68 on: January 17, 2011, 11:31:13 am »

Stop taking advantage of the extended dynamic range provided by digital recording.

Crap songs are crap in any format.

Are there converters that retain more of the sound or is it really just the nature of PCM conversion that fails to capture it fully?

It's capturing everything that isn't filtered. That isn't where the big difference is. The big difference is the ability to NAIL your ears to a wall with impact in the highend, at least that is what I am mostly a victim of. Too much reality + hyper-reality equals brash.

I like the ommision of reality in analog.
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Bill Mueller

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Re: analog trade-offs
« Reply #69 on: January 17, 2011, 11:57:18 am »

Silvertone wrote on Mon, 17 January 2011 08:19


As for the film analogy,  I've used that for many, many years... film softens the edges (transients) and blurs the picture a little (magnetic tape),  just like our brain does with the real world... put a little cheese cloth over the lens (compression) and you get a euphoric effect.  I think it's why we still prefer it over the cold stark reality that is digital... we want a softer, gentler world to live in... I know I do.

Larry,

Don't forget the fact that most professional film formats have gray scale performance that closely matches the human eye, where as until quite recently, a video camera had typically 1/10th of that gray scale performance, making the transitions from edge to edge hard and harsh. Modern high res cameras now have 256 levels of grayscale and look much more like film.

That analogy cannot be made between analog and digital audio other than at a -60db signal and very low bit rate.

Bill
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Re: analog trade-offs
« Reply #70 on: January 17, 2011, 12:36:19 pm »

Tidewater, I disagree that there is omission in analog.  If anything, I believe there is more information on tape.  The increased sense of dimension ("space/depth") coming off tape must be due to the presence of overtones that are lost in digital.
I know this topic has been discussed a lot, but I haven't been able to find a better digital multitrack solution.
David
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Tidewater

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Re: analog trade-offs
« Reply #71 on: January 17, 2011, 01:11:11 pm »

It's very hard to talk about this.

Digital has better ears than me. Analog has similar ears, and tastes. Analog allows for a spirit world.

There is no afterlife in digital.

Do to the nature of the formats, analog plays back what it heard you say, and digital plays back what you said, no matter how stark..

This is what I am talking about. Digital is a format, analog is your partner in production. I am all alone here.
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MagnetoSound

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Re: analog trade-offs
« Reply #72 on: January 17, 2011, 01:21:53 pm »

Tidewater wrote on Mon, 17 January 2011 18:11

... analog plays back what it heard you say, and digital plays back what you said ...




Gotta say, I love this.  Smile


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Music can make me get right up out of my chair and start dancing or it can get me so pumped up I have to walk around the block.
It can also knock me back and make me sit there and cry like a little baby. This shit is as powerful as any drug!!!
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mgod

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Re: analog trade-offs
« Reply #73 on: January 17, 2011, 01:24:35 pm »

MagnetoSound wrote on Mon, 17 January 2011 10:21

Tidewater wrote on Mon, 17 January 2011 18:11

... analog plays back what it heard you say, and digital plays back what you said ...



Gotta say, I love this.  Smile



Yes, its utterly confounding, but its pretty great.

So is digital the Asperger's of audio?
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Bill Mueller

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Re: analog trade-offs
« Reply #74 on: January 17, 2011, 02:07:18 pm »

Tidewater wrote on Mon, 17 January 2011 13:11

It's very hard to talk about this.

Digital has better ears than me. Analog has similar ears, and tastes. Analog allows for a spirit world.

There is no afterlife in digital.

Do to the nature of the formats, analog plays back what it heard you say, and digital plays back what you said, no matter how stark..

This is what I am talking about. Digital is a format, analog is your partner in production. I am all alone here.

Miles,

You're not alone at all here. I agree with your statement and would like to further add that analog tape (the thing we are talking about when we say "analog", has a "transfer characteristic". That means that the signal that comes from the playback head is different than the one that went into the record head. This is a simple, measurable quantity of wow, flutter, harmonic distortion intermodulation distortion and broadband noise. These characteristics are a problem for some and pleasing to others.

We know that second harmonic distortion can be very pleasing to the human ear as it adds "loudness" to a signal without adding volume. The BBC studied the effect of noise on high frequency perception and concluded that noise makes the listener believe a signal is "brighter" and has more highs than it actually has, without the noise. Again, an enhancement. Who woulda thunk!

For those of us who have never really relied on tape to add those things, and want the recorder to simply play back what was put into it, we don't miss analog tape all that much. For those who love those characteristics for themselves, we now have a multi million dollar market replacing the sounds of obsolete recorders. VERY odd if you ask me.

In the end. To Each His Own.

Best regards,

Bill
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"Don't take it personally. But this shit is a science." J.J.Blair

“The Internet is only a means of communication,” he wrote. “It is not an amorphous extraterrestrial body with an entitlement to norms that run counter to the fundamental principles of human rights. There is nothing in the criminal or civil law which legalizes that which is otherwise illegal simply because the transaction takes place over the Internet.” Irish judge, Peter Charleton
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