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Author Topic: Pipe Organ  (Read 3040 times)

wa Edwards

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Pipe Organ
« on: August 10, 2004, 03:28:50 PM »

Recorded a pipe organ and choir the other day, and had a bit of a surprise when assembling the CD. When the organist was playing softly in order to blend with the choir, everything was fine.  However, when the organ had a solo, particularly a loud solo, it sounded as if the tape machine seriously needed servicing - wow (pitch and amplitude shifting) all over the place.  Except- it was recorded to hard disk, not tape.

Where did that come from?  Was the organ running out of air? Or a mic placement issue?  Or do massive organ chords mess with the wordclock Rolling Eyes ?

FWIW, the mic set-up was two omni, 17" apart (yeah, I know, probably too wide), about 20 feet out from the organ pipes. Placement was not ideal.  Room was roughly octagonal with a RT60 of around 2 seconds.

Wayne
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David Schober

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Re: Pipe Organ
« Reply #1 on: August 10, 2004, 06:57:44 PM »

tape machine?

What kind?  Did this happen only once, or every time the organ got loud?
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David Schober

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Re: Pipe Organ
« Reply #2 on: August 10, 2004, 07:11:52 PM »

It's probably just the doppler effect from the organ spinning around in the octagon shaped room.  Did you hear that sound as you were walking the floor during rehersals?  I would love to hear the FX.  Sometimes natural ambience does unexpected things.

Steve

giles117

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Re: Pipe Organ
« Reply #3 on: August 11, 2004, 11:44:28 AM »

Pipe Organs Spin???
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Johnny B

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Re: Pipe Organ
« Reply #4 on: August 11, 2004, 12:44:21 PM »

What 'verter box and software are you using?

How was it recorded? Chain? Gain stages, etc.
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PP

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Re: Pipe Organ
« Reply #5 on: August 11, 2004, 02:54:20 PM »

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wa Edwards

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Re: Pipe Organ
« Reply #6 on: August 11, 2004, 03:34:25 PM »

Getting caught up on replies here, and a followup question at the end.
Yes, every time the organ got loud and soloed.  I suspect the effect was masked a bit during ensemble play.

Recording chain was DPA omni mic(s) -> Grace pre -> MDR24/96 w/DAT safety.  Limiter on DAT, but I think the effect shows up on both machines.  Need to check this...  Had to use the safety for one cut.

Didn't hear it directly during setup and rehersals.  I do recall thinking - "another round room - why do they bother building these things?"  That is, I could certainly "hear" the shape of the room, and don't care for it.  

The mics were placed out a ways from the organ to capture the choir, which was the main attraction.  Since it was a one-time live event, I don't have the luxury of re-recording it.  Pity, as the organist was very good.  But I will likely be back to work that venue or one very much like it within the next year.  So I'd like to figure it out.

So it appears that pipe organs spin, or maybe their rooms do. Laughing  Wonder if this where the idea for the leslie speaker came from?

Now the followup questions:
If the effect is phase cancellation then would it be noticed in a soloed single channel?  I'll have to try it.

Would ORTF work better in this situation, having better rejection to the rear of the pair?  OR spaced figure-8s (lateral rejection)?

Getting closer to the organ would put the mics closer to the perimeter of the "circle".  I would think the sound would be flying around much more so there than toward the center of the room.  Ah, but the direct to reflected ratio would be much higher, so... yeah, that should help.

Thanks for all the input.

Wayne
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Johnny B

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Re: Pipe Organ
« Reply #7 on: August 11, 2004, 06:06:06 PM »

Round and round we go...
Luck you have Peter here to help clear things up.

You may want to do a comp track of the organ (ie single channel) and then bring back the choir and match it up.

 
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"As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality,
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Rich Mays

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Re: Pipe Organ
« Reply #8 on: August 12, 2004, 02:27:41 AM »

I'm taking a different spin (ouch!)-- depending on the shape of the ceiling, I think the culprit could be flutter echo between the floor and ceiling, especially if it is rather flat towards the center-- is it?

There is a room here that exhibits the same effects, but only at higher amplitudes.

Inquiring minds want to know what the ceiling is like!

And the solution here is to not get close to the center of the room.

Rich
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PP

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Re: Pipe Organ
« Reply #9 on: August 12, 2004, 08:08:16 AM »

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wa Edwards

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Re: Pipe Organ
« Reply #10 on: August 12, 2004, 03:49:53 PM »

Rich,
I don't recall the shape of the ceiling.  It may have been flat-ish.  I'll have to watch for that as well next time.

Peter,
Thanks for the picture links.  They remind me I need to start planning some travels for one of these years.  Particularly out your way.

As for octagonal churches in the US, I think it's a cultural fad.  There are quite a few of that general shape around here (Seattle).  Most of them are less than 40 years old, and well, I don't generally care much for either the visual or audible aesthetic. I think this particular one had the best sound of the bunch, but it was still problematic.

Anyhow, it's been a good discussion.

Wayne
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ted nightshade

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Re: Pipe Organ
« Reply #11 on: August 13, 2004, 12:26:55 PM »

I was intrigued at one of the shamefully rare organ concerts at Davies Hall in San Francisco (some years they have one, many none, and what a beautiful, incredible organ they have) to hear things spinning! It really sounded like a colossal leslie. For all I know, there were colossal leslies- it's quite a modern organ.

I think there's a possibility that the tape-like anomalies are to be enjoyed as part of the sound of the instrument in the room, and although they ring a lot of warning bells for the engineer, they might not seem that way to listeners at large.

Or maybe not- I recall a wonderful flanged piano sound I opened a recording with- unfortunately, most people got the distinct impression that their cassette was being eaten by their player. Maybe not the best opening.
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Ted Nightshade aka Cowan

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PP

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Re: Pipe Organ
« Reply #12 on: August 14, 2004, 12:13:54 AM »

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Rich Mays

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Re: Pipe Organ
« Reply #13 on: August 14, 2004, 10:33:06 PM »

i doscovered this very interesting critique of the hall :

http://www.anstendig.org/OrganDaviesHall.html

The hall has undergone a complete renovation since then, and I do not know how well the problems were fixed.

As for the organ itself, it is indeed 5 manuals and 147 ranks, but I am surprised that is in the 35 largest. As monster organs go, 147 ranks isn't THAT big (!).

Rich
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ted nightshade

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Re: Pipe Organ
« Reply #14 on: August 14, 2004, 11:40:51 PM »

Quote:


One thing, however, is now certain. There is no such thing as an acoustic expert. Too little is understood about all aspects of hearing, especially those aspects that come into play in the evaluation of highly refined sound experiences such as those of finest music. Also, as The Anstendig Institute's papers show, traditional, firmly believed theories such as those concerning reverberation, are either controversial or wrong, and many prevalent concepts of what correctly produced music should sound like are also wrong. It is time to wake up to the fact that the intrusion of modern acoustical science into the world of music has not brought acoustical quality any further. No matter how sophisticated the machinery it uses, the field of acoustics is still in a primitive stage in so far as understanding which sound qualities are desirable and how to achieve them is concerned.

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Ted Nightshade aka Cowan

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PP

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Re: Pipe Organ
« Reply #15 on: August 15, 2004, 03:16:51 AM »

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