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Author Topic: This "teabag" thing...  (Read 11925 times)

Dominick

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Re: This "teabag" thing...
« Reply #60 on: June 03, 2010, 07:46:04 PM »

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Dominick Costanzo

bblackwood

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Re: This "teabag" thing...
« Reply #61 on: June 03, 2010, 07:58:25 PM »

Dominick wrote on Thu, 03 June 2010 18:46

http://teapartyjesus.tumblr.com/

That sight is sad, because it seems to be so true amongst so many...
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Brad Blackwood
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Barry Hufker

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Re: This "teabag" thing...
« Reply #62 on: June 03, 2010, 08:59:49 PM »

While we disagree, certainly no hard feelings here Brad.

Barry

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bblackwood

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Re: This "teabag" thing...
« Reply #63 on: June 03, 2010, 09:06:09 PM »

Barry Hufker wrote on Thu, 03 June 2010 19:59

While we disagree, certainly no hard feelings here Brad.

Barry



Same.

The world would be a better place if more Christians shared your attitude.
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Brad Blackwood
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Hallams

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Re: This "teabag" thing...
« Reply #64 on: June 03, 2010, 09:31:33 PM »

There is so much to this situation being debated here and it is a very real problem in the political landscape.
 There are people who express their Christianity in their political stance in a continuum from extreme right to extreme left, and this expression can be said as god being fashioned in the "believers" image rather than the believer being transformed by faith into the image of their creator.
 For me the label "Christian" ceased to have any meaning when one dear to me was raped while being counseled for childhood sexual abuse by a christian counselor employed by a baptist ministry. Heavy shit.
As it turned this perpetrator belonged to an extreme cult with eclectic new age and occult world views calling themselves "The Mystical Church of Jesus Christ"

I share this here to illustrate how meaningless it is to tag a position with the christial label and emphasise the extreme polarity of opinion that can be gathered under the one label of christian. Also,  because i feel the dynamic in American politics is just as heavy at this time. The Republican party seems to be shifting further to the right, polarization is becoming more extreme and the Christian debate is a quagmire.
 If those who sharea broader middle ground, Republican and Democrat don't stand back from the debate enough to gain some objective evaluation they will be seduced by the extreme, and the consequences for America will be a disturbing thing to witness from the vantage point of any looking on from the outside world. One litmus test is to walk into any bookshop and see the huge increase in books published that present ridiculous arguments that perpetuate an extreme distaste for the current American President.

This experience did not destroy my faith in the God who Is, but any faith or trust in my fellow human beings was shattered.  The words of any person are meaningless except when in alignment with how they act out their day to day life. I appreciate the compassion of any human despite the label they go by and i despise the actions of the cruel, the nasty the hard heated, the liars, the greedy, weather they go by the name of christ or allah, republican or democrat or no name.
 I consider myself to be one who has had a personal spiritual revelation of  the I AM Who I AM, and the fulfillment of revelation being expressed in the person of Jesus but to call myself a born again christian seems meaningless given the misuse of the lable and the character assassination that has be fallen the name of Jesus, hence the rather wordy way of expressing who i believe in.

For me, for a person to say they believe in Jesus means nothing. I do have a character template based on what best i surmise was the intent of his time on earth and think in many ways that it's ok to be easy going and not a religious nutter, and i would rather stand next to a compassionate human being who is agnostic or atheist or islam, than be counted as a brother to one who calls himself a christian but lives by the what i perceive to be precepts of subtle cruelty and moral blindness, as expressed in extreme points of view on matters of  politics or faith.

  The very real problem i see developing is that the extreme is in danger of dominating the political landscape in the US and this is a dangerous dynamic that will not end well if reason and wisdom are a sideline. This whole situation is one of the many examples of when ideology dominates over common sense. American your real enemy is extremism within.

 Another aspect i find hard to figure out is how the more extreme of the rebublicans as expressed by the tea bagers canot accept that they lost the election and those who are represented by the winning candedate have a democratic right to be represented by  the President and the Democrats. The election gives the Democrats a mandate to govern.
This dynamic is also disturbing to see from my point of view as a non American.
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Chris Hallam.
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Barry Hufker

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Re: This "teabag" thing...
« Reply #65 on: June 04, 2010, 10:01:18 AM »

Chris, I think you have a very sensible philosophy.  Being a Christian is having a "personal relationship with Jesus Christ".  It is not so much a religion as a personal experience with God.  It doesn't matter the denomination or the holding of any particular views on politics or social issues.

Christians are all failed human beings.  By that I mean they realize they are sinful, can not save themselves from their sin and realize salvation is only through Jesus Christ.  It's the last part people usually get upset about as being "extreme" or "dogmatic".  The thing they need to realize is that we Christians didn't come up with that notion.  It is said clearly in The Bible.  And for those of us who believe The Bible is the written word of God (in the original manuscript) then we have to accept what we are given by him.

With regard to Christians, there is a wide spectrum as you say.  Jesus is at the center of that spectrum and the goal for each Christian is to live his/her life as closely to that example as possible.  But God is forgiving and accepts as we try to live as closely as we can to Christ's example while being merciful about our shortcomings.

I am not that forgiving however.  It is a personal failure.  Many times I have seen the bumper sticker "Jesus save me from your followers" and I thought "Amen".  Yet, as The Bible says we are all to work out our own salvation with "fear and trembling" knowing one day we will have to explain ourselves to the Almighty.  I'm not here to convince anyone to be saved nor is it my duty to tell others how to live.  I just say there is hope through Jesus if someone wants it.  After that it is between them and God.

Barry

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YZ

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Re: This "teabag" thing...
« Reply #66 on: June 04, 2010, 01:19:46 PM »

Barry Hufker wrote on Fri, 04 June 2010 11:01

 I'm not here to convince anyone to be saved nor is it my duty to tell others how to live.


This world would be a better place if more people, regardless of their religion, followed those sentiments.

I, for one, do whatever 'good deeds' I do and act honestly and ethically in my life not because it is so written in a book or because I believe that to be the way to my salvation in an afterlife; I do it because I believe that to be the right thing to do here and now, for me and for the others.

(this is NOT meant to be a slant on anyone's beliefs)

Back to the tea people...  some time ago I read on Businessweek magazine an article about tax reform that included a few interviews with 'common people', and there was that 40-something lady who stated (near verbatim) that she was "against more taxation for the rich because she wants to be rich someday and when she gets there she doesn't want to pay more taxes"

She stated her current income at below $50k/yr...   -sigh-
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regards,

YZ

Berolzheimer

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Re: This "teabag" thing...
« Reply #67 on: June 04, 2010, 02:36:06 PM »

YZ wrote on Fri, 04 June 2010 10:19

 some time ago I read on Businessweek magazine an article about tax reform that included a few interviews with 'common people', and there was that 40-something lady who stated (near verbatim) that she was "against more taxation for the rich because she wants to be rich someday and when she gets there she doesn't want to pay more taxes"

She stated her current income at below $50k/yr...   -sigh-


And that's exactly what the corporatists want us all to think, it keeps us working our asses off for them & prevents us from complaining about them not contributing their fair share.

http://www.alternet.org/story/42313/?page=1


"I don't want to be the pinprick that lets the air out of the swollen balloon of hope, but at the same time I desperately want them to see that their wholehearted belief in the American Dream is actually doing more to benefit people far richer and whiter than they are.

As long as they are distracted by their own dedication, they won't stop to question why the richest people in this country pay far less in taxes, proportionally, than the middle class. They won't have the time to organize against elitist candidates because they will be too busy working dead-end jobs. As a friend once explained to me, "The proletariat didn't rise up like Marx predicted because he was too tired after work. All he wanted to do was watch TV and have a beer."
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DarinK

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Re: This "teabag" thing...
« Reply #68 on: June 04, 2010, 02:36:17 PM »

Okay, I'll admit upfront that this is in poor taste, but I still like it.  It's the words of conservatives (not representing all conservatives, I know, I know) put in the mouth of Jesus:
http://teapartyjesus.tumblr.com/

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Barry Hufker

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Re: This "teabag" thing...
« Reply #69 on: June 04, 2010, 03:53:28 PM »

I enjoyed that site.  Here's one of my favorites....

index.php/fa/14896/0/

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Fenris Wulf

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Re: This "teabag" thing...
« Reply #70 on: June 04, 2010, 08:52:31 PM »

The "Tea Party Jesus" site has a very good point: small-government conservatism is not compatible with Christian ethics. The U.S. Constitution is implicitly based on pagan ethics (i.e., the pursuit of happiness as the highest form of morality). It was created during a historical period in which Greco-Roman culture was celebrated as never before or since, a period in which religion was in serious danger of being laughed out of existence. It is no coincidence that the architects of the Constitution were invariably Deists. Most of the religious leaders of the time denounced the Constitution as godless and threatened America with divine retribution if it was ratified, and spent the next century trying to repeal it.

This is why the Republicans have ceased to be conservative in any meaningful sense of the word. The so-called "neoconservatives" closely resemble the Progressives of previous decades: the old-school fascist/militarist/socialist Woodrow Wilson type of Progressives. Perhaps this is why the Left hates the neocons so much: they are a reminder of the Left's own past.

Every U.S. President since 1913 has been a mainstream, church-going Christian. And yet, they have completely failed to bring about world peace and the brotherhood of man. Maybe they secretly worship Satan. Or maybe Christianity doesn't work as a basis of government, and we need to rediscover the values and attitudes of pagan Greco-Roman civilization.

It's not THAT big of a step, because Christianity is already a very paganized religion. All the best parts of Jesus' teachings were borrowed from the Stoics, who were the first philosophical school to enunciate the concept of universal human rights. Monotheism was originated by Greek philosophers, when they discarded the tales of Greek mythology as juvenile and conceived of a "Prime Mover."

The sole innovations of Christiantity were the doctrine of creatio ex nihilo and the doctrine of "love your enemies." The pagans regarded these doctrines as insane, and rejected them.

You can't convert anyone by saying "your beliefs are stupid and you're stupid." You have to offer them something better. The Left has nothing to offer but a discredited ideology based on altruist/pacifist ethics that don't work in the real world, ethics that have no rational basis other than "because God said so." The Right has nothing to offer but more of the same.

Our political leaders are oblivious to the meaning and value of America's Constitution. Its clear and unambiguous languge goes right above their heads; they think it's written in "Old English" and has no relevance to modern times. Some of them pose as "good old boys" while others pose as "intellectuals," but in fact all of them are quite stupid.

Today's "intellectuals" are even worse. They are so blatantly irrational, so hostile to Western civilization, than any rebirth of freedom will have to come from the common people. This will happen when Americans discover that they were pagans all along and embrace pagan ethics, which are the only ethics that can provide a principled defense of individual liberty.

I hope this provides some perspective on just how silly our current political debates are.
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Berolzheimer

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Re: This "teabag" thing...
« Reply #71 on: June 04, 2010, 09:43:02 PM »

Fenris Wulf wrote on Fri, 04 June 2010 17:52

 Perhaps this is why the Left hates the neocons so much: they are a reminder of the Left's own past.



No, we hate them because their greedy self-serving policies are fucking up the world that we and our children have to live in.
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Edvaard

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Re: This "teabag" thing...
« Reply #72 on: June 04, 2010, 10:32:13 PM »


Well, ever since I started learning about how the world actually operates I've considered political debates to be pretty silly anyway.

Likewise ideological debates of most any sort.


"Altruism" is just a human term, a human concept. But in nature there are many instances of one creature seemingly "giving" something to another aside from the young, as normal routine for that species.

Some species co-operate in their daily affairs, especially in food gathering. The more successful ones use ever more complicated multi-step procedures, sometimes with special communication required.

The level of co-operation needed for survival is first learned in the family/community environment, the sociological development attained there being the foundation for further skills in survival.

"Altruism," "community," co-operation, etc. exist in nature because that is what was/is required for survival of those species. Somehow those animals do all that with out any ideological or philosophical directive whatsoever.


Some animals use simple tools, a few with even basic shaping. We went from animal to human not so much because we made a bowl, but because we put a curlicue on the very first one. Which came first, art or spiritual awareness? Was it simultaneous or is it a 'chicken or egg' question? Or did both items come from science, the idea and engineering and production of the bowl? Were they in fact one and the same thing at the outset?

I don't know about any of that. But humans as tool/art makers have only been around for about 500,000 years, just a blip in earth terms. From fire to steam engine took almost all that time, but from steam engine to moon landing took only about 250 years.

I think that we're just having trouble keeping up with ourselves lately.



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Edvaard

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Re: This "teabag" thing...
« Reply #73 on: June 04, 2010, 10:55:08 PM »


PS

We went from printing press to texting in 666 years.




- no comment ...



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Barry Hufker

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Re: This "teabag" thing...
« Reply #74 on: June 04, 2010, 11:34:12 PM »

Fenris,

No offense, but we're going to have to get you a really good history book so you know what really transpired.  The philosophers who influenced the creation of the United States were Humanists and not Pagans.

Christianity is based on God's relationship with the Jews as first mentioned in the Old Testament.  While you may be familiar with The Stoics, you certainly don't understand Christianity.  You have read The Bible all the through right?  Cover to Cover?

Barry

"No, we hate them because their greedy self-serving policies are fucking up the world that we and our children have to live in."

Thank you Berolzheimer.  But we shouldn't hate them.  Just what they think and do.  There is a difference.

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