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Author Topic: Test: Ben Sneesby's K47-Type Capsules  (Read 29914 times)

Klaus Heyne

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Test: Ben Sneesby's K47-Type Capsules
« on: May 20, 2010, 04:51:03 PM »

The timbre of the original Neumann K47 sound is almost there in Ben Sneesby’s new K47-type capsules: good, tight, and balanced bass, a mid range signature closely related to Neumann’s, and no pointedness or breakouts in the high frequencies. With other words, a fairly well-balanced response overall, and clearly more so than with K47/M7 efforts by other independent capsule makers whose products I have tested.

While there is still a small amount of aggressive constriction in the mids, it is clearly not so dominant that it would stick out in an ugly way, as it does with some of the recent K47/M7 capsule types made by MG and Thiersch.

What, then, could still be improved in Ben’s capsules so they could be a ready-to-use, unquestioned, true alternative to Neumann’s K47 for my work (and I would not want to use a comparison to anything but the past and current gold standard in capsules)?

1. A capacity of the transducer to respond to complex, fast, signals with higher speed and without audible mid range smear,
and (maybe related to it?):

2. Adding a slight bit of that narrow, but vitally important, range of high frequencies- that inoffensive, barely noticeable amount of ‘air’ on top of the reedy and timbre-correct mid range of his capsules. Because it is that slight amount of ‘air’ that Neumann capsules have which then seamlessly connects to the mid range, that makes their capsules so smooth overall, despite the robust and prominent low mids.

A bit more about the slight midrange smear or congestion I hear:
I am not a capsule maker, and can only speculate a possible connection between a slowly responding diaphragm that is not quite capable of dissolving incoming highs and mids quickly enough to render that famous, emotionally engaging, three-dimensionality which Neumann’s K47 capsules still possess to this day, and still exclusively. I understand that the variables of diaphragm construction, preparation and mounting are many, and ideal balance points are hard to measure and translate into manufacturing parameters. Yet, the devil hides somewhere in there...

To sum it up: I found the two capsules Ben sent me to have a lot of what makes Neumann’s K47 so appealing; but, as usual, to achieve the final 10% of anything is an unpredictable, hap-hazardous, uphill battle.

Considering how far Ben has come in such a short time, I hope he will go all out in his efforts to conquer the last bit of the performance gap between his and Neumann’s K47.

Additional notes: Ben’s capsules were within the same timbral tolerance, side-to-side- and capsule-to-capsule as Neumann’s. With other words, acceptably close in a professional application.

Minor issue that I think Ben should address: the threads in the backplates are one metric size up from Neumann’s. With other words, if the capsule is to be used in a Neumann product, you should request the correct M-size screws that will work with the oversized threads.

Minor issue I don’t understand: Ben uses super-thick washers under the central lead out screws that are also a bit rough on the surface, with a potential to mar the diaphragm upon contact. Unless there is an acoustic or electric reason for it, I would change them to gold-plated washers of conventional thickness.


Test setup:

Source: my voice, as always.

Neumann-comparison capsules used against Ben’s 2 K47-style capsules:
1961 Brass K47, 1975 ivory plastic K47, NIB 2009 K47 against Ben’s two specimens, yielding four front sides altogether

Method: quickly switching back and forth between two stock KK47 heads (one with the capsule/side under test, the other with the Neumann comparator) on the same U47 (1957 model in perfect functional condition, as if that needed mentioning)

Number of tests: 12

Ben Sneesby’s 2 capsules x 2 sides = 4 front sides
(I only tested cardioid performance)
U47 stock capsules (preselected front sides) = 3


Ben Sneesby responds:

Quote:

Hi Klaus, thanks for the review and critique.  (...)
The only observation I have is that the washers I use for the centre screw
are only rough on top as they are gold plated, and the underside that has
direct contact with the diaphragm is smooth as smooth can be, thus never
causing damage to the diaphragm.(...)

One more thing:
The reason I have chosen to use the m1.4 screw is that the tap to make the
threads is larger, hence less likely to break during manufacture. Also, the
larger screw allows me to tighten each screw to a set torque setting whereas
in the M1- due to its small size, torque setting of the capsule ring is not
possible.


Please feel free to post this on the site, I am happy to get some more
comments and ideas from the members.  I will definitely keep working on
designs and methods to make the perfect capsule.  

Thanks again

Ben Sneesby
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Klaus Heyne
German Masterworks
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R-AP.SCI

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Re: Test: Ben Sneesby's K47-Type Capsules
« Reply #1 on: May 20, 2010, 06:54:58 PM »

It was wonderful to read your review of Ben's capsules, as I have ordered capsules from him and found his work to be sonically pleasing.
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seedyunderbelly.com

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Re: Test: Ben Sneesby's K47-Type Capsules
« Reply #2 on: May 20, 2010, 07:54:22 PM »

Hi Klaus,

Interesting review.

 If I may ask a question,  What are the differences in your specific Ivory and Brass that you tested?  It may seem immaterial but any qualitative answer would be of use even if it is beside the point.  Thanks!  j

And congratulations Ben look forward to hearing them .

Klaus Heyne

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Re: Test: Ben Sneesby's K47-Type Capsules
« Reply #3 on: May 20, 2010, 08:06:05 PM »

If you mean by 'differences' sound impressions, I would say that the spread among all post-brass K47/49 versions (with the exception of the fibreboard version, sell below) are indistinguishable to my ears, if you put aside the always noticeable timbre range between any of the capsules, and from side to side of the same capsule.

With other words, within the tolerance range of all plastic ring K47, I usually don't hear out-of-character samples. However, the brass ring series does sound slightly different: a bit mellower, with a slightly more silky upper high frequency range, a bit woolier bass response, and a slightly less pronounced midrange.

The pronounced mid range of the plastic ring K47 is even more noticeable in the fibre board versions (medium- to-dark brown color with the distinct pattern of fiber board- the first  series after the brass ring version.)  
But that prominence is by no means unpleasant to my ears. If anything, it can give an overly mellow M49 a bit of a kick in the right places, without abandoning the K47/49 family of sounds.
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Klaus Heyne
German Masterworks
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Eric H.

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Re: Test: Ben Sneesby's K47-Type Capsules
« Reply #4 on: May 21, 2010, 05:27:55 PM »

2 questions:

*What about Ben's mics?
As anyone have had experience with one of them? They seems to be really well made and very affordable.

*On the Thiersch M7 side, and this is more directed to Klaus, was there any big break lately?

Thanks,


EDIT: By the way , I loved the review, as it shows the level of analysis and understanding of the sound of this device.
Did you know that in the perfume world, they are not allowed to share with the outside world the words used to describe and analyse scents.
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Klaus Heyne

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Re: Test: Ben Sneesby's K47-Type Capsules
« Reply #5 on: May 21, 2010, 06:01:28 PM »

No noticeable deviations from previous impressions I had and shared of the Thiersch PVC capsules.
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Klaus Heyne
German Masterworks
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seanBfunky

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Re: Test: Ben Sneesby's K47-Type Capsules
« Reply #6 on: May 21, 2010, 10:38:38 PM »

Klaus,

Ben makes a K47, a K47b, and a K47c.  Which one did you test?

Thanks!

Sean Broderick
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miics

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Re: Test: Ben Sneesby's K47-Type Capsules
« Reply #7 on: May 22, 2010, 07:19:23 AM »

Klaus was testing my Latest revision.  i call it the K7.  thanks

Jim Williams

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Re: Test: Ben Sneesby's K47-Type Capsules
« Reply #8 on: May 22, 2010, 10:59:53 AM »

To be complete, what is the rest of the signal chain used for auditioning microphones?

Which cables, connectors, mic preamp, monitoring/playback equipment were used and why they were selected? Was the microphone body or electronics used to audition these capsules stock or modified designs?

Are any other sound sources used to audition microphones besides your voice?

In the case of smaller mics not used for vocal reproduction, do you use other sources to test and audition 1/2" mics?
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Re: Test: Ben Sneesby's K47-Type Capsules
« Reply #9 on: May 22, 2010, 01:58:53 PM »

Ben,

Will the K7 capsule be offered on your website anytime soon?

Sean B
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Klaus Heyne

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Re: Test: Ben Sneesby's K47-Type Capsules
« Reply #10 on: May 22, 2010, 02:20:58 PM »

Jim,

My chain has remained contant, and in the case of the headphones, life long. I have found over the decades that the consistency, with a modicum of resolution/fidelity, is what counts. I have, on occasion, sampled whole components, electronic components, and/or interconnects in my effort to improve resolution, and have incorporated these components or sub components when I could hear the improvement.

So, all of the components listed below have been, more or less, modified from stock.

In the Sneesby test I used the following:

Headphones: Sennheiser 414 run and wired in mono
Headphone interconnects: back to stock-Sennheiser, after lengthy tests with audiophile substitutes
Mic pre and headphone amp: Nakamichi 610 Control Preamplifier, unbalanced input.
Interconnect beween mic pre and microphone power supply: Gotham GAC3
Mic power supply: stock Neumann NG
Microphone: Neumann U47, long body, 1957, mostly stock, with the exception of Hovland Musicap coupling and filtering capacitors
Sound source: my voice. No reproduced sound sources were used.


As to the "why were they selected"? question: Because I have found over the years a high correlation between that specific listening chain and my ability to make confident decisions in the course of microphone fine tuning. These decisions have been confirmed by many cross-checks in studios, and by the feedback I get from professional clients with ears I trust or respect.
So, while my  listening chain may or may not make sense when used by others, it has served me well in analysing and improving professional recording equipment.

What I am mainly interested in is mid range resolution and fidelity, hence the use of my voice.
I have for a long time now maintained that a microphone which is capable of reproducing the vocal range well will usually succeed in reproducing the upper and  lower end of the audio spectrum well too (see my comments on the Sneesby capsule's mid range response).

I only use my voice, and use it on small diaphragm mics as well. I believe I can translate a mic's response feedback to my voice well into other applications aside of voice, including scoring, orchestra, foley, instruments or ADR.

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Klaus Heyne
German Masterworks
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miics

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Re: Test: Ben Sneesby's K47-Type Capsules
« Reply #11 on: May 22, 2010, 05:36:08 PM »

seanBfunky wrote on Sun, 23 May 2010 03:58

Ben,

Will the K7 capsule be offered on your website anytime soon?

Sean B


Hi Sean, it is already available, i just haven't got to put it on the site yet.  If you need to alk with me, pm or give me a call.  thanks

Klaus Heyne

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Re: Test: Ben Sneesby's K47-Type Capsules
« Reply #12 on: May 22, 2010, 08:32:23 PM »

As clearly stated in the Ground Rules, please conduct all buying and selling business off this site.

Thanks,
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Klaus Heyne
German Masterworks
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MDM,

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Re: Test: Ben Sneesby's K47-Type Capsules
« Reply #13 on: May 23, 2010, 01:19:09 AM »

Klaus,

I often record both instruments and vocals quite far from the mic, depending on the application, and have found that the 'old school' capsules seem to do this very well.

could you please do a test which evaluates the capsule's response to sources which are more than a metre or two away in comparison to the original K47's please?
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Klaus Heyne

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Re: Test: Ben Sneesby's K47-Type Capsules
« Reply #14 on: May 23, 2010, 02:16:57 AM »

What distance would you like?
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Klaus Heyne
German Masterworks
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MDM,

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Re: Test: Ben Sneesby's K47-Type Capsules
« Reply #15 on: May 23, 2010, 03:01:17 AM »

a metre or close to two?

the actual precise distance is not so important as this varies with the application due to room reflections and musical reasons.

but what does matter to me is that the capsule does work fine at a distance, in the sense that the sound is still distinct and 'solid-sounding'

I know the vintage ones in good shape can do this quite well(they were after all made to pick-up orchestras?)
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Klaus Heyne

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Re: Test: Ben Sneesby's K47-Type Capsules
« Reply #16 on: May 23, 2010, 03:20:15 AM »

Nah, the "vintage ones" were originally made for the Nazis- spoken word. The M7/K47 backplate pattern that is still in use today goes back before WWII.

I will comply nevertheless and report back how the Sneesby compares to the Neumann at a distance well beyond proximity effect, at a meter or two.
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Klaus Heyne
German Masterworks
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Edvaard

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Re: Test: Ben Sneesby's K47-Type Capsules
« Reply #17 on: May 23, 2010, 09:38:36 AM »


Is it taken as gospel that Neuman were oblivious to all other broadcast and recording considerations of that time? or that the backplate design was intentioned thuswise? That is an interesting proposal, considering the cultural situation before and during that regime. Speeches were important, but the propaganda utility of music and film were invoked often too, aside from the normal recording and film considerations. But then I don't actually know what the thought process might have been, considering all that.



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Klaus Heyne

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Re: Test: Ben Sneesby's K47-Type Capsules
« Reply #18 on: May 23, 2010, 01:44:30 PM »

It may be much simpler and less speculative than that. Audio equipment of the 1930s and even earlier had very poor s/n.

Accessing the mic close-up optimised the signal output and minimised the noise.
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Klaus Heyne
German Masterworks
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MDM,

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Re: Test: Ben Sneesby's K47-Type Capsules
« Reply #19 on: May 24, 2010, 11:41:08 AM »

hmm.. I think they would have at least considered mic'ing orchestras, and the mercury living presence records are proof of how the capsule does perform at a distance.

the 'omni' setting using two membranes would also have had other applications.

orchestral music was used often in propaganda.

The soundtracks for nazi movies for instance were very impressive.

Air friction causes HF loss at a distance so a presence peak can be a good thing for distant mic'ing.

the M7's had a high-frequency peak, which became more subtle as time went by.. probably because of vocal use and too much sibilance (for the time) at close-range..

I have two M7's here and the late 50's one is not as bright by design from what I understand.  The backplate is slightly different.  The earlyer M7 is brighter.

I know it's the capsule and not the reskin because I had it reskinned twice (second time PVC) and the overall high midrange was still there (but the peaky top-end was not)
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David Bock

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Re: Test: Ben Sneesby's K47-Type Capsules
« Reply #20 on: May 24, 2010, 04:38:19 PM »

Quote:

In the Sneesby test I used the following:
Headphones: Sennheiser 414 run and wired in mono
Headphone interconnects: back to stock-Sennheiser, after lengthy tests with audiophile substitutes
Mic pre and headphone amp: Nakamichi 610 Control Preamplifier, unbalanced input.
Interconnect beween mic pre and microphone power supply: Gotham GAC3
Mic power supply: stock Neumann NG
Microphone: Neumann U47, long body, 1957, mostly stock, with the exception of Hovland Musicap coupling and filtering capacitors
Sound source: my voice. No reproduced sound sources were used.


Do you use a different setup for P48 mics?

Klaus Heyne

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Re: Test: Ben Sneesby's K47-Type Capsules
« Reply #21 on: May 24, 2010, 05:49:18 PM »

For P48 I use the same system, except for an external phantom supply (Neumann N451, with no integrated decoupling of DC) which I connect to a high quality Mayhak 1:1 transformer. P48 mic cable and output XLR cable is Gotham GAC3.


I will make the Sneesby distance tests as soon as I get the U47 back from rental, next week.
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Klaus Heyne
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miics

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Re: Test: Ben Sneesby's K47-Type Capsules
« Reply #22 on: June 02, 2010, 10:12:20 AM »

Hi Klaus and all.  I have been making some changes and will get a few more samples out to you ASAP.  thanks again.

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Re: Test: Ben Sneesby's K47-Type Capsules
« Reply #23 on: June 18, 2010, 09:03:18 AM »

Hi Klaus,
I have just today implimented 2 changes into the K7. Firstly, thinner centre washers (thanks) and secondly, solid-core termination wires.

Just letting you know some progress.

thanks

MDM,

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Re: Test: Ben Sneesby's K47-Type Capsules
« Reply #24 on: June 18, 2010, 12:19:35 PM »

just a reminder for distant-mic comparison of original neumann vs. Ben S.'s capsules
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Klaus Heyne

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Re: Test: Ben Sneesby's K47-Type Capsules
« Reply #25 on: June 18, 2010, 01:49:00 PM »

Yes, thanks.
I will not get my U47 back from rental until next week, but your reminder is appreciated.

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Klaus Heyne
German Masterworks
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Klaus Heyne

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Re: Test: Ben Sneesby's K47-Type Capsules
« Reply #26 on: June 18, 2010, 01:50:56 PM »

miics wrote on Fri, 18 June 2010 06:03

 (...) and secondly; solid core termination wires.


Just make sure they don't resonate, as solid core capsule lead out wires have a tendency to do.
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J.J. Blair

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Re: Test: Ben Sneesby's K47-Type Capsules
« Reply #27 on: June 19, 2010, 05:08:14 PM »

[quote title=Klaus Heyne wrote on Fri, 18 June 2010 10:50]
miics wrote on Fri, 18 June 2010 06:03

 (...) and secondly; solid core termination wires.


I was going to say, of the many things I've learned from Klaus and David Bock, one is to not use solid core wires off the capsule.  
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Re: Test: Ben Sneesby's K47-Type Capsules
« Reply #28 on: June 20, 2010, 09:02:52 AM »

I keep reading this, and would point out that capsules in UM57, and the Microtech Gefell UM70 and M71 etc use solid wires.
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miics

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Re: Test: Ben Sneesby's K47-Type Capsules
« Reply #29 on: June 20, 2010, 09:28:57 AM »

Klaus Heyne wrote on Sat, 19 June 2010 03:50

miics wrote on Fri, 18 June 2010 06:03

 (...) and secondly; solid core termination wires.


Just make sure they don't resonate, as solid core capsule lead out wires have a tendency to do.



Thanks, i will/have done and so far so good. and i believe that i have the midrange clearer now too due to an ever so slight tensioning modification.

cheers

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Re: Test: Ben Sneesby's K47-Type Capsules
« Reply #30 on: June 20, 2010, 12:32:32 PM »

zebra50 wrote on Sun, 20 June 2010 06:02

I keep reading this, and would point out that capsules in UM57, and the Microtech Gefell UM70 and M71 etc use solid wires.


Not the same thing.  We're talking about solid core, insulated wire, as opposed to stranded.  What Geffel uses is not even really what I'd consider "wire."
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They say the heart of Rock & Roll is still beating, which is amazing if you consider all the blow it's done over the years.

"The Internet enables pompous blowhards to interact with other pompous blowhards in a big circle jerk of pomposity." - Bill Maher

"The negative aspects of this business, not only will continue to prevail, but will continue to accelerate in madness. Conditions aren't going to get better, because the economics of rock and roll are getting closer and closer to the economics of Big Business America." - Bill Graham

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Re: Test: Ben Sneesby's K47-Type Capsules
« Reply #31 on: June 20, 2010, 12:34:50 PM »

I keep reading this, and would point out that capsules in UM57, and the Microtech Gefell UM70 and M71 etc use solid wires.

They might be solid, but they are not really 'wire' They are minute hands as used in watches, and as far as I know they come from "Glasshuette" (Village in East German famous for fine watch manufacturing)

Also they are secured on both ends, so that there is really no room for moving (resonating).

Best regards,

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Re: Test: Ben Sneesby's K47-Type Capsules
« Reply #32 on: June 20, 2010, 01:21:14 PM »

Quote:

Also they are secured on both ends so that there is relay no room for moving...



Yup, screwed at the centre and soldered at the bottom, and I can imagine the flat profile prevents lateral vibrations.

I'm sure the electrons can't tell if it's a watch hand or a wire, so long as it conducts.

J.J. Blair wrote on Sun, 20 June 2010 17:32

Not the same thing. We're talking about  solid core, insulated wire, as opposed to stranded.


Are we? The poster didn't say if they are insulated or not....

miics wrote on Fri, 18 June 2010 14:03

... and secondly; solid core termination wires.
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Re: Test: Ben Sneesby's K47-Type Capsules
« Reply #33 on: June 20, 2010, 10:57:41 PM »

J.J. Blair wrote on Sat, 19 June 2010 14:08

I was going to say, of the many things I've learned from Klaus and David Bock, one is to not use solid core wires off the capsule.  


I am not principally opposed to solid core wires as capsule lead outs. They just need to fiulfill two requirements for me:

1. They must be resonance-free

2. They must sound good
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Re: Test: Ben Sneesby's K47-Type Capsules
« Reply #34 on: June 21, 2010, 01:15:48 AM »

Klaus Heyne wrote on Mon, 21 June 2010 12:57

J.J. Blair wrote on Sat, 19 June 2010 14:08

I was going to say, of the many things I've learned from Klaus and David Bock, one is to not use solid core wires off the capsule.  


I am not principally opposed to solid core wires as capsule lead outs. They just need to fiulfill two requirements for me:

1. They must be resonance-free

2. They must sound good



Yes I agree and I am sure you are all well aware that I wouldn't be using these if they sounded bad as i am on a constant quest for the perfect sounding capsule.

cheers

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Re: Test: Ben Sneesby's K47-Type Capsules
« Reply #35 on: June 21, 2010, 02:05:43 PM »

Quote:

I keep reading this, and would point out that capsules in UM57, and the Microtech Gefell UM70 and M71 etc use solid wires.
Exactly my point.

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Re: Test: Ben Sneesby's K47-Type Capsules
« Reply #36 on: June 21, 2010, 04:24:46 PM »

Quote:

I'm sure the electrons can't tell if it's a watch hand or a wire, so long as it conducts.
It's an electro-acoustic transducer, so mechanical resonance in the electrical circuit exists, as opposed to a pure electronic device where the the electrons "don't care".

J.J. Blair

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Re: Test: Ben Sneesby's K47-Type Capsules
« Reply #37 on: June 21, 2010, 04:30:12 PM »

zebra50 wrote on Sun, 20 June 2010 10:21

I'm sure the electrons can't tell if it's a watch hand or a wire, so long as it conducts.


You're missing the point.  It has nothing to do with the electrons moving through it.  It has to do with vibrations and ultra high impedance parts of the circuit.  

A solid core insulated wire off the capsule is likely to have a resonance, where stranded wire, or the watch hand, as implemented by Gefell, is not.  

The point being that the resonance will affect the signal, and create an unwanted tone.  It's the same reason that Neumann put rubber insulaters under the 100M resistors, etc.  
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zebra50

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Re: Test: Ben Sneesby's K47-Type Capsules
« Reply #38 on: June 21, 2010, 05:47:19 PM »

J.J. Blair wrote on Mon, 21 June 2010 21:30

You're missing the point...


I'm really not missing the point about the vibrations - I even mentioned lateral vibrations in my last post, the rectangular profile being more rigid in one direction than another. And yes, I had understood this to be an electro-acoustic effect as well as a purely mechanical transfer of vibrations to the capsule.

Possibly you missed my point also. Possibly I was not expressing myself in the best way.

What I was trying to imply with my first post is that there is more than one way to do this, and it's not as simple as solid vs. stranded, or insulated vs insulated. Hence my reference to the Neumann-Gefell capsules.

I wanted to say that because I didn't feel it was fair to judge against the new capsule design on this basis before anyone had heard it. Design, thickness, material, method of attachment, parasitic capacitance should all come into play.

I think David got my point, possibly. A watch hand can still resonate, although with different modes than a round or flat wire. I don't see how this is inherently better than a shaped wire or specially formed part for the job.

As I'm sure you know, if you buy a UM57 replacement capsule from Thiersch, it comes with a gold wire lead rather than a watch hand.
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Stewart Tavener
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miics

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Re: Test: Ben Sneesby's K47-Type Capsules
« Reply #39 on: July 29, 2010, 06:41:08 PM »

Hi all.  

Klaus, did you get a chance to try the capsules at distance yet?  cheers

Klaus Heyne

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Re: Test: Ben Sneesby's K47-Type Capsules
« Reply #40 on: July 29, 2010, 10:48:54 PM »

I have not. Too much pressing jobs right now.
But thanks for reminding me. I will add it to my list of priorities.


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Klaus Heyne
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miics

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Re: Test: Ben Sneesby's K47-Type Capsules
« Reply #41 on: August 02, 2010, 10:44:41 AM »

Hi Klaus, thanks for the reply.  Please don't be pressured to do it too soon, i was just enquiring.  I can honestly say that i know what it is like to be very busy, i don't want to sound pushy.  thanks again, i hope all are well.

cheers
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