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Author Topic: I think I like this guy.  (Read 11259 times)

Edvaard

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Re: I think I like this guy.
« Reply #15 on: May 18, 2010, 12:02:43 AM »


Hi there.

Except for the last two statements of yours, which is opinion, and that's fine, much of what you say is essentially true.

And sorry if I come across as an 'expert,' because I am not. But I have had enough economics at the university to be a bit more than conversant as to how markets work, and the most important aspect of properly functioning markets is sufficient regulation, not to make things fair in a moral sense, but in the 'rules of the game' sense, so as to keep things from running amok. The more ethical considerations are handled by the consumer protection folks. I remember the big tustle with Standard and Poor's and the Georgia legislature, and I was amazed at what happened, wondering why somebody wasn't arrested under the RICO act for thuggery. So I got more interested in the details of the subprime thing.

Various parts of the Glass-Stegall act and the Bank Holding Company act had been gradually eased or repealed in the 80's and 90's. These prevented retail banks, investment banks, and insurance companies from combining, so as to protect depositor's funds, paid-in insurance premiums, etc. from being exposed to the greater speculative risks that investment banks engaged in. Banks were prohibited from and insurance companies naturally disinclined towards these more speculative ventures, but, if an investment bank were to buy a bank or insurance company, then they'd just consider those deposits and premiums as a cheap source of funds to have fun with. This was all learned from experience in the 20's.

The Financial Services Modernization Act Of 1999 was then passed, which removed the most prohibitive parts of Glass-Stegall and the holding company act.

Once that happened, the usual cross-sector market forces in which loan originators, banks, and secondary mortgage markets checked each other as to loan quality, thus limiting the risk to reasonable levels, soon melted away. The investment banks could spread the risk of a relatively few low quality loans amongst mostly higher quality loans, package it as a collateralized debt obligation, hire a credit rating agency to rate it, and then sell it to investors, including some banks, mutual funds, retirement funds, etc. The few lower quality loans had higher interest rates, and so made the overall CDO have a somewhat higher return than an all AAA bundle. At first this was done in a fairly safe way, the statistical laws of risk spreading being well tested, and it being fairly predictable the number of actual defaults, after which the total return still made it worthwhile.

But the inherent moral hazard of having an interest in selling more CDO's if the return were more attractive, and at the same time having easy access to the original loans, made it inevitable that lower quality loan originations were actually sought after, then outright promoted, because they had higher interest rates, thus making for higher return CDO's, which meant lots more CDO's sold. This off the top of my head, but subprime loans were ~ 5 % of originations in 2000, then 20 % by 2006.

This increase was obtained by changing the usual practice of charging higher interest on the loan from the outset, which limited the number of people wanting them, to then starting with a teaser rate of 2-3 %, the terms then changing after ~ 3 years which almost doubled the payment. Built-in guaranteed eventual high  default rate, right there, but the CDO business was too lucrative for anybody to care. When these mortgage originators started hitting on older, poorer home owners with subprime re-finance or even second mortgages, selling them on the initial lowering of their payments, but easily hiding the fine print from them, then states tried to take action with so-called predatory lending laws, but as I pointed out in the earlier post, the investment bankers sicked Standard and Poor's on them to set them straight.


Standard and Poor's, Fitch, and Moody's all willingly and knowingly rated these CDO's as AAA or equivalents, as the subprime content kept increasing. They took money from Goldman & others to rate these investments, in competition with each other.

To make all this even more fun, AIG and others started taking premiums from investors wanting to hedge against default of these CDO's, largely at the invitation of the investment banks, who got fees for bringing the credit default swappers together. But a huge lot of those obtaining these default swaps didn't even own the underlying CDO's, which bothered AIG not in the least, just give us a few million a year in premiums, thank you very much. Which means that these 'naked' swap buyers were paying the premiums ONLY in anticipation of the CDO's going bad and, guess what? Goldman invited these non-owners to get in on the selection of loans that made up the CDO's, so as to allow them to load these dice to their heart's content. Fees, fees, and more fees, at every step and turn. This is like me taking out fire insurance on a house that you are having built but, unbeknownst to you, the builder is letting me choose the materials for your house, and I toss as much flammable material as I think I can get away with into the truck, while the building inspector stamps "Flame Resistant" (AAA) all over it.


Now, housing bubbles come and go, and no argument from anyone that that is what happened here too. But prior to 1999 there is NO way that a housing bubble of relatively normal size could have had anywhere near this grossly inordinate percentage of defaults. No how, no way.

With the old mechanisms and standards in place, not government mandated but set by what retail banks would tolerate, this bubble, no worse by itself than others we've had not too long ago, would have caused some defaults, some people would have lost homes, some banks would have lost money, a few of them not surviving.

With this new game now being played, defaults were far out of proportion to the bubble itself due to the proliferation of subprime loans, the rating agencies changed their CDO ratings from AAA to junk bond status in less than 3 days, the credit default swap triggers were pulled, AIG now owed half a gazzillion dollars to a bunch of people who didn't even own what they paid AIG to insure, a bunch of retirement funds said "wha ... ? ," bank's assets dropped way way down, right now, and since they knew all other banks assets dropped way down, nobody would give any money to anybody. Meltdown.


With much of the above, change one or two of the names, change the figures some, multiply by a few hundred, and that would explain part of it.




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grantis

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Re: I think I like this guy.
« Reply #16 on: May 18, 2010, 12:49:50 AM »

danickstr wrote on Sat, 15 May 2010 21:38

Well, he could serve Gatorade in the schools - it has electrolytes!



Seriously.  Why wouldn't anybody wanna drink water?

"you mean like...from the toilet?"
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Grant Craig
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Paul Cavins

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Re: I think I like this guy.
« Reply #17 on: May 18, 2010, 01:36:44 AM »

Hey Edvaard-

Sounds like a good explanation of Wall Street's role in the meltdown.

For every sub-prime lender, there was fool (an actual adult)  borrower. No one needed to worry about the situation, because everyone knew that housing prices would always go up.

The banks had the assurance that Fanny and Freddie would be there to backup the sub-prime loans, so that certain moral hazard exists due to gubmint action.  GSE's helped set the table for this shite sandwich dinner.

We can't have a society where grownups are not held accountable for papers that they sign when taking out a home loan. I mean, the average responsible adult isn't an expert in finance, but something has to asked of them in terms of responsibility.

I still think the whole thing is a case against government meddling in the economy. Beyond regulating markets for fair practices, the government should stay out and let the markets  do their thing. Easy money and a federal backup plan for market-unreal loans cause, or at least allow for, distortions and unintended consequences.

Those consequences include Wall Street banks making the most of the situation.

PC



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el duderino

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Re: I think I like this guy.
« Reply #18 on: May 18, 2010, 09:29:11 AM »

grantis wrote on Tue, 18 May 2010 00:49

danickstr wrote on Sat, 15 May 2010 21:38

Well, he could serve Gatorade in the schools - it has electrolytes!



Seriously.  Why wouldn't anybody wanna drink water?

"you mean like...from the toilet?"


but it has electrolytes, they're what plants crave.



seriously tho, NJ has a loooong awful history with bad spending and worse borrowing. what really  got NJ into the mess it is in now has to do with BS jobs providing insane retirement packages.
It wasn't until recently in this state that part-time gov't workers stopped being eligible for a pension. Additionally, people could hold several of these positions thereby having even larger pensions.

what really screwed the pooch tho was when Whitman was governor in the mid to late 90s and totally raided the pension fund. This was the setup. After raiding it, every governor since has had to borrow huge sums of money, pay a ton of interest on it, AND it keeps increasing to just to stay afloat. in case you were wondering what these funds paid for initially, TAX CUTS.

hey, lower taxes now would great, but not when it raises the cost in the long-term. Apparently no one considered that.

As for the housing market you guys make good points. There should be accountability among everyone. But when a company gives a guy a $500,000 mortgage and he doesn't even need to provide proof of income, who is to blame?

In addition to these things, there is the issue of way too many municipalities in NJ. Many people aren't aware of it, but NJ is filled with tons of tiny little towns, many of whihc have their own services. It raises cost and redundancy and has definitely played a role. Like with schools.

In NJ we have 605 school districts in a state with a population of about 8 million people.

GA has 180 school districts with a population of about 9.8 million people.

This is just schools. Add in police for all these little towns, fire departments in many, sanitation, etc. and it adds up fast. If Chris Christie can pay down state debt and not raise taxes (or force them to be raised on a local level) it will be a miracle.

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Edvaard

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Re: I think I like this guy.
« Reply #19 on: May 18, 2010, 01:11:02 PM »


Clearly, politics is more faith-based than any religion could ever hope to be.

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DarinK

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Re: I think I like this guy.
« Reply #20 on: May 19, 2010, 01:38:00 PM »

Paul Cavins wrote on Mon, 17 May 2010 22:36


We can't have a society where grownups are not held accountable for papers that they sign when taking out a home loan. I mean, the average responsible adult isn't an expert in finance, but something has to asked of them in terms of responsibility.




Up until this crisis, adults taking out home loans could trust those from whom they were getting the loans.  The lenders did not want to make loans that would not be repaid, because that would hurt them directly.  But the splitting & repackaging & selling, etc., of the loans removed that risk.  So for the first time, it was in the interest of the lenders to make bad loans.  I don't blame the borrowers for trusting the lenders because that's the way it has always worked, and there was no information provided to the borrowers that would have helped them make a better decision. Even the vast majority of financial experts were not sounding the alarms. I blame the lenders.
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fiasco ( P.M.DuMont )

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Re: I think I like this guy.
« Reply #21 on: May 19, 2010, 04:42:19 PM »

DarinK wrote on Wed, 19 May 2010 13:38

Paul Cavins wrote on Mon, 17 May 2010 22:36


We can't have a society where grownups are not held accountable for papers that they sign when taking out a home loan. I mean, the average responsible adult isn't an expert in finance, but something has to asked of them in terms of responsibility.




Up until this crisis, adults taking out home loans could trust those from whom they were getting the loans.  The lenders did not want to make loans that would not be repaid, because that would hurt them directly.  But the splitting & repackaging & selling, etc., of the loans removed that risk.  So for the first time, it was in the interest of the lenders to make bad loans.  I don't blame the borrowers for trusting the lenders because that's the way it has always worked, and there was no information provided to the borrowers that would have helped them make a better decision. Even the vast majority of financial experts were not sounding the alarms. I blame the lenders.



I blame the government which covered the lenders asses,
and continues to cover their asses,
because the government wanted home "ownership" to be one of its' marks on history.

Simplification, yes, but true none the less.
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Philip

Edvaard

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Re: I think I like this guy.
« Reply #22 on: May 19, 2010, 07:56:38 PM »


FHA-VA, FHLMC, GNMA, FNMA have all been around for many decades, through many a housing bubble/bust, several being in the range of the most recent one.

To prove your point about it all being the fault of GSE's, you are welcome to bring to our awareness how many of these housing price downturns, by themselves, prior to 1999 (whence repeal of Glass-Stegall) caused a complete financial meltdown and wreckage of the economy to the tune of 8 + million newly unemployed, the effects reaching to Europe and well beyond.


The residential mortgage backed securities from FHLMC and FNMA, which are government chartered but private corporations, with no government guaranty whatsoever, have been around for decades. The CDO's from Goldman et. al. came into being less than ten years ago.

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Paul Cavins

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Re: I think I like this guy.
« Reply #23 on: May 19, 2010, 08:48:52 PM »

How is it that we are only allowed to blame one party? I'm sorry, a person who gets a loan on a house they can't possibly afford is to blame. So is the idiot lender.

Fanny and Freddy did indeed give government backing for sub-prime loans that were bundled, and that is what made them feasible for the banks, so they could be reckless.

Banks were reckless, home buyers were reckless, the government was reckless, Wall St. was reckless.

The idea that one kind of player in this farce is "the one to blame" is dumb and ideologically motivated.

We have had an epidemic of unreality playing out for decades. It is now time for reality, and it isn't going to be fun.


PC




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DarinK

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Re: I think I like this guy.
« Reply #24 on: May 19, 2010, 09:43:22 PM »

These people were taking out loans that they truly believed they could afford.  The real estate agents told them that.  The lenders told them that.  The politicians told them that.  The economists told them that.  The evening news told them that. The Republicans told them that.  The Democrats told them that. There was absolutely no mainstream voice, none, that said otherwise.
With hindsight it's easy to say they should have known.  But that's not the way it actually was.
Oh, and the lenders weren't idiots - they made a ton of money off it all, which is ultimately their job, I guess.  They weren't the ones to suffer.  Neither was Wall Street.  The ones suffering are the home buyers and the taxpayers, and everyone affected by the general economic collapse.
There is lots of blame to go around, and if we are to assume that business entities have no morals and should not be blamed for doing whatever they can to generate profit, I'm glad to start with Clinton's repeal of Glass-Steagall.  
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Paul Cavins

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Re: I think I like this guy.
« Reply #25 on: May 19, 2010, 10:11:03 PM »

I do think that business entities should have a moral bottom line, and it was crossed in the last few years as far as bankers and Wall St. types are concerned.

There is lots of blame and suffering to go around. Again, everyone was taken with the idea that housing prices would go up forever, but everyone was wrong. Sure, savvy businessmen were more aware and capable, but that doesn't remove any responsibility from the adults who signed impossible loans. How can society work if the average person isn't held to some level of accountability?

Also, in the blame game-along with everyone else, let us remember congress and the GSE's. They should have known better, too.

If those in congress are smart enough to come up with a plan to revamp our whole health care system, then they should have damn well been smart enough not to have played their role in the economic collapse. Of course, they aren't that smart, but the dumb shits went ahead and passed a huge healthcare overhaul bill anyway. Absolute nonsense.

PC
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Edvaard

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Re: I think I like this guy.
« Reply #26 on: May 19, 2010, 10:28:19 PM »



Paul Cavins wrote on Wed, 19 May 2010 20:48

How is it that we are only allowed to blame one party? I'm sorry, a person who gets a loan on a house they can't possibly afford is to blame. So is the idiot lender.

Fanny and Freddy did indeed give government backing for sub-prime loans that were bundled, and that is what made them feasible for the banks, so they could be reckless.






Where did you read from any legitimate source that Freddie Mac or Fannie Mae are government guaranteed or insured? It is tiresome hearing people's belief system spouting nonsense as fact.

FHLMC and FNMA themselves guaranty the RMBS's they sell to investors, the government does not guaranty or insure either those corporations or their securities.


And the idea that the average buyer, much less the older and less educated widows the subprime originators often preyed upon, are supposed to be able to match wits with experienced real estate contract lawyers hired by the subprime companies for the express purpose of structuring and designing multiple pages of indecipherable fine print with innumerable and inscrutable cross-referencing to be as intentionally obtuse as possible, presented to the prospective borrower by someone who can essentially say whatever he likes, is far worse than 'dumb idealism,' but I'd rather not use the words that would accurately describe what it would be.

An analogy would be if there were the most minimal laws regarding safety and manufacturing standards and inadequate laws regarding truth in advertising concerning cars, and the manufacturers can do whatever they think they can get away with, but the buyer is what you would consider "just as responsible" if he/she bought a new car that had seals and gaskets that disintegrate in 2 months, because the buyer didn't do enough dis-assembly of the car before buying to properly inspect all that, knowing just what to look for. Or am I just 'making excuses' for the buyer here?

The attempt to change the laws concerning the subprime industry and their loan process to get them up to standards that match most anything else sold to consumers was successfully thwarted at every turn. But I suppose the borrowers were responsible for allowing that to happen too.


The biggest point is that irresponsible borrowers and lenders have always been around, but the regulatory regime was such that only the particular borrower and lender in question suffered from such indiscretion. In a general home price decline, the worst damage could reach no farther than a few regions and a few banks. The regulations did not address every last item in the lending business, they just provided a sufficient framework that lenders or borrowers suffered if they did something stupid, and that would be example enough to dissuade most others from doing likewise.

With the major change in the regulatory environment brought about by the repeal of Glass-Stegall, the lending process became completely distorted, whereby it became more profitable for a few to actually promote what used to be considered bad lending practices. The people who made the most money from this process did so because the the regulatory situation now allowed them to profit the most from the mortgage business without ever taking on the actual risk of the loans themselves. Well gee, I wonder how that's going to turn out?


The borrowers and lenders are responsible for the default. What the borrowers are not responsible for is changing the whole scheme of the game to the extent that what would have been a market downturn before now becomes a complete national and extra-national wreck.




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Paul Cavins

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Re: I think I like this guy.
« Reply #27 on: May 19, 2010, 11:21:48 PM »

Real quick, Fannie and Freddie are not technically guaranteed against failure, but as a government chartered entity, there is an implied guarantee that they would not be allowed to fail, so they can mop up all kinds of less-than-nifty loans and act as a backstop for private sector actors. They also enjoy favorable interest rates because of that implied guarantee.

From Wikipedia-(the final source, we all know)

"In addition, the GSEs created a secondary market in loans through guarantees, bonding and securitization. This has allowed primary market debt issuers to increase loan volume and decrease the risks associated with individual loans. This also provides standardized instruments (securitized securities) for investors."

Isn't that secondary market securitized sub-prime loans?  Because of the GSE advantage, loan volume increased because the loan originator could just sell off the loan, and they were made into investment instruments for Wall St.

GSE's provided an opportunity for lenders to make crap loans and then offload them. That doesn't excuse the lenders, but is still a stupid setup.

This is GSE's helping to fekk things up, isn't it?

My head hurts-

PC
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Edvaard

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Re: I think I like this guy.
« Reply #28 on: May 20, 2010, 12:05:38 AM »



Paul Cavins wrote on Wed, 19 May 2010 23:21



"In addition, the GSEs created a secondary market in loans through guarantees, bonding and securitization. This has allowed primary market debt issuers to increase loan volume and decrease the risks associated with individual loans. This also provides standardized instruments (securitized securities) for investors."


Isn't that secondary market securitized sub-prime loans?

PC



My eyes aren't as good as they used to be, but I can't find the word "subprime" in the quote above.


The quote is a general description for all the GSE's, which actually do quite different things, and if you don't know that (which, however, you actually could know if you keep reading all wiki has to say about all of them), it makes it seem as though they all do essentially the same thing, at first glance.


VA-FHA do various things; some outright assistance, some partial guaranty, etc, for very specific types of loans, first time buyers, etc. A relatively small part of the total pie in terms of market value.

GNMA does in fact guarantee certain classes of loans, with guidelines as to what the loan terms can be. Either no or very few subprime class of loans there.


Freddie and Fannie are private corporations who pool loans into residential mortgage-backed securities for sale to the secondary market.


"This has allowed primary market debt issuers to increase loan volume and decrease the risks associated with individual loans."


This is a badly worded statement. The RMBS's do in fact help increase loan volume for the primary market, but the "decrease in risk associated with individual loans" refers to the secondary market, it being that they buy one security with multiple loans contained within, and the risk is spread amongst them. The same reason some of us prefer to get a mutual fund that has professionals choosing a variety of stocks, which aside from better selection, means that one or two stocks not doing so well doesn't drag the whole thing down, and actually probably still make money, rather than take our chances putting the same money into one individual stock with our inexpert knowledge. There is no repackaging or grouping that is capable of changing the risk of an individual loan, just as your owning a mutual fund does not change the risk/reward profile for any individual stock.


But again, even if one thinks that GSE's are the problem ...

They've been around in one form or another since 1932. It is hard to believe that GSE's are the culprit in this recent incident, while behaving so tolerably for the 75 years prior to that, whereas recent repeal of the Glass-Stegall law that was originally put into place around the same earlier time had nothing to do with it.


PS

Part of the description for subprime loans; "loans which do not meet Fannie Mae or Freddie Mac underwriting  guidelines for prime mortgages (are "non-conforming")."

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RMoore

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Re: I think I like this guy.
« Reply #29 on: May 20, 2010, 09:55:16 PM »


This book is a great read - the author's sardonic wit makes it quite entertaining. Study of a bubble, meltdown & failures to predict & manage the chaos. Very obvious parallels with the now:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Great_Crash,_1929


The Great Crash, 1929 is a book written by John Kenneth Galbraith and published in 1954; it is an economic history of the lead-up to the Wall Street Crash of 1929. The book argues that the 1929 stock market crash was precipitated by rampant speculation in the stock market, that the common denominator of all speculative episodes is the belief of participants that they can become rich without work[1] and that the tendency towards recurrent speculative orgy serves no useful purpose, but rather is deeply damaging to an economy.[2] It was Galbraith's belief that a good knowledge of what happened in 1929 was the best safeguard against its recurrence.



Prospects for recurrence

Galbraith was of the opinion that the Great Crash had burned itself so deeply into the national consciousness that America had been spared another bubble up to the present time (1954).[19]; however he thought the chances of another speculative orgy which characterized the 1929 crash as rather good as he felt the American people remained susceptible to the conviction that unlimited rewards were to be had and that they individually were meant to share in it. He considered the sense of responsibility in the financial community for the wider community as whole as not being small but "nearly nil".[20] Even though government powers were available to prevent a recurrence of a bubble their use was not attractive or politically expedient since an election is in the offing even on the day after an election.[21]
[edit] Reception and popular culture

In 2008 and 2009, Jim Cramer took to waving John Kenneth Galbraith's book,[22] and praising it on his show Mad Money. He has been struck by the similarities between the crash described by Galbraith and the crash occurring in the late 2000s recession.[23
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