R/E/P Community

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

Pages: 1 ... 6 7 [8] 9 10   Go Down

Author Topic: Worst Environmental Disaster Ever?  (Read 19593 times)

TotalSonic

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3728
Re: Worst Environmental Disaster Ever?
« Reply #105 on: June 23, 2010, 12:07:41 PM »

YZ wrote on Tue, 22 June 2010 21:22

billiard wrote on Tue, 22 June 2010 15:43



     http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/wed-june-16-2010/an-energy -independent-future


Sorry but I couldn't resist...

While all the POTUSes shown in that video were promising alternatives to oil since 1974 in the world's richest and most powerful nation, saying that the country had the expertise, the knowledge, the scientists, the power, the money...

...Indebted and underdeveloped Brazil did create its alternative and the Ethanol-powered car reached the market by 1979.
And while the engines were being developed we went gradually increasing the mix of Ethanol in our gasoline to reduce our oil dependency.

I tell you what...  if a severely indebted country with a corrupt administration and a powerful pro-Arab lobby could do it in a few years, I don't know what other factors could have kept the USA from doing better than that.




Problem is the EROEI (energy returned on energy invested) is actually a very poor ratio on ethanol - especially in comparison to more traditional fossil fuels.  For corn ethanol as is currently being produced in the USA it is unbelievably poor - as fossil fuels are in fact what powers the farm machinery, the irrigation, creates the fertilizers and pesticides, and powers the vehicles that distribute it.  In fact in some cases it can require just as much energy to produce the ethanol as you get from it so it is just better to use the fossil fuels directly instead of making a detour through the corn ethanol production.

For ethanol made from sugar in places conducive to growing it such as Brazil it is better EROEI ratio - although way less dense than oil by a good bit - but the ultimate environmental impact of current farming techniques there makes its sustainability and potential for expansion definitely very questionable.

The fact is that resource depletion and physics (as to what energy sources are actually power dense, and as to what are suitable as transportation fuels) are what prevent the USA from having energy independence.  Currently over 60% of oil is imported here - and over 30% of our domestic production is off shore - and despite having absolutely every incentive to discover and develop domestic oil fields we peaked in domestic oil production in 1971 - and despite every effort to increase this can not.  Since we have almost no rail transport on the electric grid here and since more and more people live in suburbs without mass transit - people depend on their cars to get to work, and the meals of about 99% in this country arrive to us via truck.  Our agricultural system completely depends on fossil fuels to run as well.  

Private ownership of cars is considered as such an unquestionable right here - that to suggest we need a huge new investment in comprehensive mass transit (that actually is way more energy efficient than private vehicle fleets) is nearly always met with contempt.  Most here instead focuses on coming up with very unlikely story of a privately funded change to a new vehicle fleet running on some technology and infrastructure not yet developed at this time - at some future time when there will likely be financial difficulty for most.

So - the USA could certainly be energy independent now - if everyone in it accepted much less prosperous lifestyles. Meaning: the only way it will happen will be with much kicking and screaming - when there is in fact no choice to be made due to fossil fuel resource depletion finally hitting levels that can not be made up for.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

YZ

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 868
Re: Worst Environmental Disaster Ever?
« Reply #106 on: June 23, 2010, 01:43:49 PM »

TotalSonic wrote on Wed, 23 June 2010 13:07


Problem is the EROEI (energy returned on energy invested) is actually a very poor ratio on ethanol - especially in comparison to more traditional fossil fuels.


Steve,

The EROEI for sugar cane Ethanol here is between 8 to 10:1, depending on several conditions. According to www.theoildrum.com , the current EROEI for oil is at about 6 (2007 estimate; I have no idea how they arrived at this figure).

From actual experience in Brazilian sugar cane Ethanol plants, after you start the process the plant not only produces the Ethanol but also injects back into the grid excess electricity from its generators that run on the sugar cane residues; the corrosive byproduct is reprocessed, again using energy generated by the plant itself, into fertilizer.

When you burn the Ethanol in your car, the CO2 emissions can be no greater than the CO2 that was removed from the atmosphere by the sugar cane as it grew; basically Ethanol is liquid solar energy.

As for the concerns that there won't be enough area to grow all the sugar cane needed, well... oil will end sooner or later and we can't 'grow' it...  some people will have to get used to the idea that they should not drive in their daily commute that 2-ton truck that can tow the boat they don't own up the hill that they don't live near.

Sugar cane Ethanol as produced today in Brazil has been called "a first-generation alternative fuel with the overall performance of a third-generation one" by foreign experts.
Logged
regards,

YZ

bblackwood

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7036
Re: Worst Environmental Disaster Ever?
« Reply #107 on: June 23, 2010, 02:57:45 PM »

Dunno if this works everywhere, but..

http://www.ifitwasmyhome.com/

Pretty sobering - especially considering this is only the oil that's made it to the surface...
Logged
Brad Blackwood
euphonic masters

DarinK

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 410
Re: Worst Environmental Disaster Ever?
« Reply #108 on: June 23, 2010, 03:27:17 PM »

Just a comment on ethanol production:  all carbohydrates ferment as they decay.  Lawn clippings, agricultural waste, whatever.  Obviously there are issues with collecting material & processing it.  The point is that alcohol for fuel does not only have to be made from crops grown specifically for that purpose.  Besides waste products, there are also multi-use crops (like hemp)that can be used for useful products, seed oil, fuel alcohol, etc.  There are many small-scale options for energy generation, but apparently currently not enough profit for big corporate investment.  The big corps are researching it all, though, and at some point (either through rising petroleum prices or lower costs for the alternatives) something will make it to the marketplace.
Logged

DarinK

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 410
Re: Worst Environmental Disaster Ever?
« Reply #109 on: June 23, 2010, 03:36:03 PM »

bblackwood wrote on Wed, 23 June 2010 11:57

Dunno if this works everywhere, but..

http://www.ifitwasmyhome.com/

Pretty sobering - especially considering this is only the oil that's made it to the surface...



Thanks for posting that.  In some ways it almost minimizes the problem.  Because of the location, the problem is worse than it would be almost anywhere else, due to how fragile those coastlands & wetlands are, and how important they are to the entire ecosystem (& economic system).

Good point about how that's just what's made it to the surface.  Someone should make a map showing what the coverage would be if all the oil were taken into account, with a coverage of, say, ten feet.  It's sad to even contemplate how big that would be.
Logged

YZ

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 868
Re: Worst Environmental Disaster Ever?
« Reply #110 on: June 23, 2010, 03:36:57 PM »

A partial quote from a link at the link you provided:
Quote:

ONE week before the spill happened Halliburton bought a company. Ohhhh which company you ask? A company called Boots and Coots, a oil spill cleanup company.

"Halliburton Co. (NYSE: HAL - News) – one of the largest oilfield service providers in the world – has agreed to acquire well-intervention firm Boots & Coots Inc. (AMEX: WEL - News) for about $240.4 million in stock and cash. The transaction, which has been approved by the boards of both the companies but is still subject to regulatory and shareholder approvals, is expected to close by summer."

BP CEO dumped a third of his holding two weeks before the disaster.


the plot thickens...
Logged
regards,

YZ

TotalSonic

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3728
Re: Worst Environmental Disaster Ever?
« Reply #111 on: June 23, 2010, 03:52:57 PM »

YZ wrote on Wed, 23 June 2010 13:43

TotalSonic wrote on Wed, 23 June 2010 13:07


Problem is the EROEI (energy returned on energy invested) is actually a very poor ratio on ethanol - especially in comparison to more traditional fossil fuels.


Steve,

The EROEI for sugar cane Ethanol here is between 8 to 10:1, depending on several conditions. According to www.theoildrum.com , the current EROEI for oil is at about 6 (2007 estimate; I have no idea how they arrived at this figure).

From actual experience in Brazilian sugar cane Ethanol plants, after you start the process the plant not only produces the Ethanol but also injects back into the grid excess electricity from its generators that run on the sugar cane residues; the corrosive byproduct is reprocessed, again using energy generated by the plant itself, into fertilizer.

When you burn the Ethanol in your car, the CO2 emissions can be no greater than the CO2 that was removed from the atmosphere by the sugar cane as it grew; basically Ethanol is liquid solar energy.


You're ignoring the environmental costs of clearing land which generally has poor retention of a relatively thin top soil layer.  There's the energy costs of machinery to farm this area and transport the product as well.

Quote:


As for the concerns that there won't be enough area to grow all the sugar cane needed, well... oil will end sooner or later and we can't 'grow' it...  some people will have to get used to the idea that they should not drive in their daily commute that 2-ton truck that can tow the boat they don't own up the hill that they don't live near.


Very good points.

Quote:

Sugar cane Ethanol as produced today in Brazil has been called "a first-generation alternative fuel with the overall performance of a third-generation one" by foreign experts.


Again - my point was that the EROEI of corn ethanol was around 1:1 -  which is why the USA has not implemented a successful ethanol program especially in comparison to that which has happened in Brazil.  

My second point was that the potential for serious environmental degradations inherent in expanding the raising of sugar cane as it currently done in Brazil are very real and the consequences of these should not be ignored when planning its energy future.  

Don't get me wrong - I do think that sugar cane ethanol is a good thing and can see Brazil coming out of the upcoming energy crises in much better shape than a lot of the rest of the world (including the USA).  But it's not a panacea that should be thought could work in a lot of other places - and it does have its own costs in the same way that fossil fuel dependence does.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

bblackwood

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7036
Re: Worst Environmental Disaster Ever?
« Reply #112 on: June 23, 2010, 04:01:23 PM »

DarinK wrote on Wed, 23 June 2010 14:36

In some ways it almost minimizes the problem.  Because of the location, the problem is worse than it would be almost anywhere else, due to how fragile those coastlands & wetlands are, and how important they are to the entire ecosystem (& economic system).

Well, seeing wide open stretches of water with oil in it doesn't have a ton of impact on me, as there's little sense of scale, where if you were to project it over Bristol, UK, it looks like this:

index.php/fa/14992/0/

... which is far more powerful to me...
Logged
Brad Blackwood
euphonic masters

Fibes

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4306
Re: Worst Environmental Disaster Ever?
« Reply #113 on: June 23, 2010, 05:08:34 PM »

Now we have an alleged suicide of a dispalced captain who was part of the cleanup. See, cleaning up takes fuel and fuel/boat payments need to be made on time but clean up payments are in limbo.

Either way, suicide or murder his blood is on BPs hands.



Word from offshore captains is that the baitfish are using the oil like they would a sargasso weedline for shelter and pelagics like tuna, wahoo and marlin are feeding on them. How long until the tainted baitfish toxin levels begin to build in fish we eat?


This thing is growing in ways we can't even fathom yet.
Logged
Fibes
-------------------------------------------------
"You can like it, or not like it."
The Studio

  http://phobos.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewArtist ?id=155759887
http://cdbaby.com/cd/superhorse
http://cdbaby.com/cd/superhorse2

bigaudioblowhard

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1314
Re: Worst Environmental Disaster Ever?
« Reply #114 on: June 23, 2010, 09:41:01 PM »

Whats the deal with www.theoildrum.com?

Is it a credible source of information?

heres the wiki on it http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Oil_Drum

I don't know anything about it, am wondering if anyone around here knows more than me (or wiki)?

bab

YZ

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 868
Re: Worst Environmental Disaster Ever?
« Reply #115 on: June 24, 2010, 12:01:29 AM »

TotalSonic wrote on Wed, 23 June 2010 16:52



You're ignoring the environmental costs of clearing land which generally has poor retention of a relatively thin top soil layer.  There's the energy costs of machinery to farm this area and transport the product as well.



No I'm not. It doesn't cost a penny more (in environmental terms) to prepare land for sugar cane when compared to preparing it to plant something else...   including the cost to farm and transport the product. And since the 'critique du jour' on sugar cane Ethanol production is about the 'danger' of it replacing food production, that argument isn't valid, unless you're proposing a global freeze on agricultural expansion.

And since we're mentioning environmental costs...  what was the aggregate cost of all the oil-related environmental disasters to date?

People seem to forget that drilling for oil has an environmental cost even if no disasters happen.

So far, the numbers are in favor of sugar cane Ethanol produced 'the Brazilian way' even when compared to pumping oil from underground.

And yes, I do see sugar cane Ethanol as a panacea, and it is such a success that it endangers the status quo, going against the interests of several small groups and 'big money'.
And those interests are not in line with the interests of the general population.
Logged
regards,

YZ

YZ

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 868
Re: Worst Environmental Disaster Ever?
« Reply #116 on: June 24, 2010, 12:07:09 AM »

bigaudioblowhard wrote on Wed, 23 June 2010 22:41

Whats the deal with www.theoildrum.com?

Is it a credible source of information?

heres the wiki on it http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Oil_Drum

I don't know anything about it, am wondering if anyone around here knows more than me (or wiki)?

bab


It was the top search result when I looked for EROEI, and that's about all I know.

Since the posts I read there on oil EROEI dated from 2007 and were made to compare the EROEI of oil to corn ethanol and solar/wind electricity, showing how favorable oil was to those, I thought that the figures couldn't have a 'pro-sugar cane' bias.
Logged
regards,

YZ

Taproot

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 713
Re: Worst Environmental Disaster Ever?
« Reply #117 on: June 24, 2010, 02:35:13 PM »

I'm headed to the Gulf this weekend to get in some fishing, before it's too late and try to drop as much money as I can afford into restaurants, bars, charters and shrimpers.

I planned to make my first ever trip out of Venice this summer and being the "king of procrastination", I'm fucked. I'm glad I at least got to experience Grand Isle.

This is pretty upsetting and heartbreaking. Mad

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h3bzypjTIWg&feature=playe r_embedded  

Logged
Jeffrey Reed
Taproot Audio Design
Oxford, Mississippi
www.taprootaudiodesign.com
www.myspace.com/taprootaudio

"That boy's so dumb, he thinks the Mexican border pays rent!" -Foghorn Leghorn

Kris

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 596
Re: Worst Environmental Disaster Ever?
« Reply #118 on: June 24, 2010, 04:32:07 PM »

Good luck... Where are you heading?  
Logged

Taproot

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 713
Re: Worst Environmental Disaster Ever?
« Reply #119 on: June 24, 2010, 06:44:39 PM »

Kris wrote on Thu, 24 June 2010 14:32

Good luck... Where are you heading?  


Launching out of Bay St. Louis, but heading to LA water for Reds and Specs. I'll be after Flounder and Blue Crab in MS waters and fishing Hwy. 90 for Shrimp. Cool
Logged
Jeffrey Reed
Taproot Audio Design
Oxford, Mississippi
www.taprootaudiodesign.com
www.myspace.com/taprootaudio

"That boy's so dumb, he thinks the Mexican border pays rent!" -Foghorn Leghorn
Pages: 1 ... 6 7 [8] 9 10   Go Up
 

Site Hosted By Ashdown Technologies, Inc.

Page created in 0.061 seconds with 20 queries.