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Author Topic: A crisis of consensus or how to tell a client he sucks!  (Read 10150 times)

urm eric

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Re: A crisis of consensus or how to tell a client he sucks!
« Reply #60 on: June 22, 2010, 12:42:04 pm »

JimK wrote on Mon, 21 June 2010 22:33



.....or how to tell a ME his grammar sucks!



Or: `how to tell *an* ME his grammar etc ...' Cool


Cheers,

Eric
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Hank Alrich

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Re: A crisis of consensus or how to tell a client he sucks!
« Reply #61 on: June 22, 2010, 12:56:58 pm »

Harland wrote on Mon, 21 June 2010 23:48

Tom, just going on the title and content of the original post, a person would have to conclude that you were at the same relative level of professionalism as your client. Can you imagine how that long time client is going to feel if/when he reads this thread? It's a betrayal to post that up for the world to see. Which doesn't lend any credibility to your claim that you want to help him. Anyway, the answer to your question is obvious - if you really do care about him then talk to him openly, honestly, from the heart and tactfully, with a ton of consideration for the sensitivities most artists have. That conversation is the one you should have had instead of this one.



+1000

JimK

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Re: A crisis of consensus or how to tell a client he sucks!
« Reply #62 on: June 22, 2010, 02:37:30 pm »

urm eric wrote on Tue, 22 June 2010 12:42

JimK wrote on Mon, 21 June 2010 22:33



.....or how to tell a ME his grammar sucks!



Or: `how to tell *an* ME his grammar etc ...' Cool


Cheers,

Eric




LOL! The joke's on me now! I knew I should have taken the time to write out "mastering engineer"...
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Jim Kissling

Garrett H

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Re: A crisis of consensus or how to tell a client he sucks!
« Reply #63 on: June 22, 2010, 03:21:55 pm »

dcollins wrote on Mon, 21 June 2010 20:25

Dale Francis wrote on Sun, 20 June 2010 14:10

Yes I read the title and took it with a tongue in cheek


The expression is "crisis of conscience" anyway......


DC



I think it was supposed to be a play on that phrase... but I could be reading way too much into it.
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Dale Francis

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Re: A crisis of consensus or how to tell a client he sucks!
« Reply #64 on: June 22, 2010, 03:58:06 pm »

Tongue-in-cheek is a term used to refer to humour in which a statement is not meant to be taken seriously, but its sarcasm is ...
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Dale Francis
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Thomas W. Bethel

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Re: A crisis of consensus or how to tell a client he sucks!
« Reply #65 on: July 01, 2010, 10:04:31 pm »

This client completely redid the vocals. They sound GREAT and I get to master his material this weekend. Thanks to all the people who gave constructive criticisms and helpful suggestions and advice.

To those of you that do mastering of marginal materials and just take peoples money without giving them anything of real value in return I personally think you are doing a disservice to your clients and their music. I really care about my clients and I care that they are coming to me, as a professional, to help them and not just take their money. I am sorry if what I do bugs you.

I know I said I would not post anymore on this subject but I wanted to let you know that the suggestions worked and the redone material will be a joy to master.

FYI besides being a client this is also a good friend whom I have known for years.

MTCW and YMMV
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-TOM-

Thomas W. Bethel
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Harland

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Re: A crisis of consensus or how to tell a client he sucks!
« Reply #66 on: July 01, 2010, 10:32:05 pm »

Thomas W. Bethel wrote on Thu, 01 July 2010 22:04

This client completely redid the vocals. They sound GREAT and I get to master his material this weekend.

FYI besides being a client this is also a good friend whom I have known for years.

MTCW and YMMV



Very glad that worked out well and was not as drastic as I took it to be!
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Waltz Mastering

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Re: A crisis of consensus or how to tell a client he sucks!
« Reply #67 on: July 02, 2010, 07:32:47 am »

I think it's a bit unfair to insinuate this:

Thomas W. Bethel wrote on Thu, 01 July 2010 22:04

 

To those of you that do mastering of marginal materials and just take peoples money without giving them anything of real value in return



Of course there's no ME that gets ONLY stellar projects.  That is a myth imo/e

It seems like you are saying that it's the ME's job to critique the production, recording and mix and if the ME does not give an  honest opinion and remedy to the client, then they are doing them a disservice?

Taking a personal vested interest  in one of your friends projects is one thing, but...is it now the ME's job to be the central scrutinizer?

urm eric

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Re: A crisis of consensus or how to tell a client he sucks!
« Reply #68 on: July 02, 2010, 08:34:00 am »

Thomas W. Bethel wrote on Thu, 01 July 2010 21:04


To those of you that do mastering of marginal materials and just take peoples money without giving them anything of real value in return I personally think you are doing a disservice to your clients and their music. I really care about my clients and I care that they are coming to me, as a professional, to help them and not just take their money. I am sorry if what I do bugs you.



You've insisted on this wild mis-interpretation, but it is pretty obvious to everyone else that this is not what anyone who took a contrary position to yours was saying.

A friend of mine advises me that you should never say anything behind someone's back that you wouldn't say directly to his face; but just between you and me, I think he's a bit of an arse.

Cheers,

Eric
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JimK

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Re: A crisis of consensus or how to tell a client he sucks!
« Reply #69 on: July 02, 2010, 09:14:49 am »

After the last post that Thomas made, I went back and re-read the original post. Some things just don't add up to me. How does one take their vocal skill from that of a choked chicken, and an out of tune one at that, to sounding GREAT in a matter of weeks? The original post implies to me that this is a client that has no business calling themselves a singer and Thomas has an issue with how to tell them that. With all the dedication in the world, I've never heard a vocalist make such a vast improvement to their tone and pitch in such a short amount of time. Was the original description a little too harsh or are you wanting to make good on proving your point?

I do think it should have been mentioned from the beginning that the client is also a close friend of many years. This changes everything to me, and how you should have been able to approach the topic with them in the first place. I know I have different working relationships with different clients, some want me involved with production opinions and some don't. All of these relationships seem to evolve pretty naturally over time.

Finally, any ME that takes a client's music and applies their technical skill to ensure that the music will translate as well as possible, regardless of their subjective opinion of the performance, is providing value.

I can't help but wonder how many classic albums that have reached "iconic" status and may also be a bit "rough" around the edges would have been turned away by Thomas. If you're mastering an Aretha Franklin album one day and a Stooges album the next, is one less ready to be mastered than the other?
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Jim Kissling

Thomas W. Bethel

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Re: A crisis of consensus or how to tell a client he sucks!
« Reply #70 on: July 02, 2010, 10:07:03 am »

The client wanted to get new his material out to his fans. He hadn't sung in a while and he did the original vocal recording in a rush. He is a long time client and has become a good friend in the process of me working with him for over 10 years. I told him very tactfully that he was not presenting his best performance and that he needed to redo the material before it was released and got on to places like YouTube where he would have gotten a lot of really bad comments that would make a "choked chicken" sound mild in comparison.

This time around he took his time he worked with a very good producer, the recording came out sounding about 100 times better and he was not in such a rush to finish the job. They did the recording in smaller pieces and so he had time to work on each section and get it perfect before moving on to the next part. Also since he was not in such a rush the recordings could be done over a period of time and so his voice had a chance to get back into shape. I listened to the MP3s that the producer sent me and I was shocked at how much better they sounded. The producer is also the recording engineer and he was able to do some additional miracles to make the voice sound even better.

When I get comments like:

Just do the job and send the invoice. It's that complicated.

I begin to question people's motives. Are you trying to help your clients realize their dreams or just profit from them?



UPDATE

The client came yesterday and we got all but one of his tunes mastered. The difference was day and night between what he brought in earlier and what he came back with. Now I have something that sounds GREAT is easy and fun to master and the client could not be more pleased.

Thanks again to all the people who had make good suggestions and understood what I was trying to find out.

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-TOM-

Thomas W. Bethel
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Acoustik Musik, Ltd.
Room With a View Productions
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Doing what you love is freedom.
Loving what you do is happiness.

urm eric

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Re: A crisis of consensus or how to tell a client he sucks!
« Reply #71 on: July 02, 2010, 10:16:36 am »

Thomas W. Bethel wrote on Fri, 02 July 2010 09:07


When I get comments like:

Just do the job and send the invoice. It's that complicated.

I begin to question people's motives. Are you trying to help your clients realize their dreams or just profit from them?



Me? Neither - you do live in such a wonderfully simple world Thom. Did you train for the ministry?

Of course (of course, of course, of course) as everyone else will recognize, it all depends on how you perceive your `job' as an ME (impartial engineer or know-all interventionist busybody - and all possible points in between).

Naturally, as they will also recognize, this takes us back straight back to square one.

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Thomas W. Bethel

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Re: A crisis of consensus or how to tell a client he sucks!
« Reply #72 on: July 02, 2010, 04:07:05 pm »

Waltz Mastering wrote on Fri, 02 July 2010 07:32

I think it's a bit unfair to insinuate this:

Thomas W. Bethel wrote on Thu, 01 July 2010 22:04

 

To those of you that do mastering of marginal materials and just take peoples money without giving them anything of real value in return



Of course there's no ME that gets ONLY stellar projects.  That is a myth imo/e

It seems like you are saying that it's the ME's job to critique the production, recording and mix and if the ME does not give an  honest opinion and remedy to the client, then they are doing them a disservice?

Taking a personal vested interest  in one of your friends projects is one thing, but...is it now the ME's job to be the central scrutinizer?



The mastering engineer is the last person between the artistic production side and the mechanical production side. Once the CD leaves the mastering engineer's hands no one else is going to be able to change anything. I think it is only fair that if you catch something that is wrong you should tell the client about it before it goes up on the WWW or he or she has 1000 copies made. Call it meddling or concern for the client but it is something I feel very strongly about. I know that if I take my car into the garage for an oil change and when they have it up on the rack they find something broken I sure as heck hope they tell me about it before a tire or muffler falls off in the middle of rush hour. If you are a professional then it is up to you to do the best for your client since they ARE paying you for your professional knowledge and experience as well as doing their mastering. FWIW and YMMV.
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-TOM-

Thomas W. Bethel
Managing Director
Acoustik Musik, Ltd.
Room With a View Productions
http://www.acoustikmusik.com/

Doing what you love is freedom.
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dcollins

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Re: A crisis of consensus or how to tell a client he sucks!
« Reply #73 on: July 02, 2010, 05:33:04 pm »

urm eric wrote on Fri, 02 July 2010 05:34


A friend of mine advises me that you should never say anything behind someone's back that you wouldn't say directly to his face; but just between you and me, I think he's a bit of an arse.



Ok, I laughed at that.

Have a GREAT weekend!


DC
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