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[Bill Yacey]

Thanks Dylan. The majority of the music I record is acoustic instruments that together fill out the whole spectrum. In addition electric bass typically and percussion. In comparing other recordings of similar Genre I think I have a grasp of how much energy the different octaves of the spectrum should have (approx.)
I know there are exceptions and no hard and fast rules, but it seems to be a good guide. One thing it has alerted me too is some of the shortcomings of the room I do my tracking in, indicating some problem frequencies.
Bill

[Doug Van Sloun]

dcollins wrote on Thu, 05 August 2004 00:35

My advice is to turn off all visual "aids."  They are confusing, misleading, and waste your time.  Having a computer monitor in front of the speakers is bad enough, you don't have to believe it.

One visual aid that I feel is necessary for analog tape transfers is Spectra Foo's Phase Torch.  I can't tell you how often I receive tapes that have no tones for alignment or are before the days of using standardized tones.  The phase torch allows you to quickly and easily adjust azimuth with most program.  And before I get ribbed, I also know how to do it with program by ear and I find that I'm not quite as accurate this way, but by keeping the Torch running it takes 5 seconds to check it and adjust it.  The session never stops and I never have to change levels or patches.  Clients appreciate the attention to detail.  Many "big time" projects done by "big name" engineers have horrible azimuth error.

[Bob Olhsson]

You know a lesson I was taught in post production is really haunting me as I read this thread. My boss played me two mixes of a rock song. One sounded way better than the other. Then he turned on the monitor showing the band. The mixes reversed with the one that sounded worse with no picture absolutely creaming the one I had first liked.

The effect of what we see on what we hear is absolutely dramatic. At Motown, we had a switch so we could turn the mix console meters off. At Atlantic, Tom Dowd had the meters removed altogether and painted every front panel in the place over with flat black paint!

Meters and displays are tools but they are also really really distracting.

[Innominandum]

Hey Bill, I hope you didn't take me the wrong way. I was saying, watching spectral curves (in a mastering scenario anyway) would benefit bad recordings more, because a good recording is probably already in the ballpark.

I also meant to say that the curve is generally more consistent in rock music or dense recordings. I didn't mean to suggest that acoustic instrumentation couldn't result in consistent curves. I've noticed that acoustic recordings often have varying spectral curves, depending on the instrumentation, from song to song.

I'm by no means an authority here but like to share my observations. Even if they may differ from others.

Out of curiosity, how did you notice the problem frequencies? Were there bulges or lumps at certain frequencies on the spectrum? And thanks for the reminder & amusing anecdote Bob.

[dcollins]

Doug Van Sloun wrote on Thu, 05 August 2004 18:40

One visual aid that I feel is necessary for analog tape transfers is Spectra Foo's Phase Torch.

Of course, a far better way is by ear!  Flip the phase of one channel and sum to mono.  When the correct azimuth is found, anything panned to the center is canceled.  The lead vox should almost disappear, leaving only reverb, etc.

Quote:

Many "big time" projects done by "big name" engineers have horrible azimuth error.

Relative to what?  The MRL tape?  The last master you played?  From track to track?

DC

[dcollins]

Bob Olhsson wrote on Thu, 05 August 2004 19:21

Meters and displays are tools but they are also really really distracting.

And you try and tell the young people of today that ..... they won't believe you.

DC

[Bill Yacey]

When I mix I don't watch a spectrum analyzer. I do my mix, and then do a static analysis on a 15 second sample of what I have just mixed,if nothing more than just to see if there is anything blatant out of line, mostly the lower bands from 30 to 120 Hz. It seems that there is a fine line between not heavy enough bottom and too much. I have found spectral analysis helpful in putting the bottom end in the ballpark; Reassurance if you want to call it that.

When I have tracked multiple overdubs on different tracks with different instruments using different mics, the same peaks and valleys show up in the analysis. I am sure this is due to the room requiring treatment. This usually occurs between 3K to 10K.
Thanks to all for the viewpoints and opinions.
Bill

[Bob Olhsson]

dcollins wrote on Fri, 06 August 2004 00:19

Relative to what?  The MRL tape?  The last master you played?  From track to track?

Geography counts!

I used to think I was nutz up in San Francisco. Nothing from other studios in the bay area was ever spot-on while virtually everything from LA was right on the money. The funniest was one 24 track channel. It seemed everybody in town had used the same screwed up set of tones.

[bblackwood]

Bob Olhsson wrote on Thu, 05 August 2004 21:21

The effect of what we see on what we hear is absolutely dramatic. At Motown, we had a switch so we could turn the mix console meters off. At Atlantic, Tom Dowd had the meters removed altogether and painted every front panel in the place over with flat black paint!

Once again Bob O. is able to say in a couple of sentences what several of us have been trying to say in two pages.

Funny how 'everyone' wants to use all the old gear used on the records they love the sound of while ignoring the methods in which it was used...

[Gold]

Quote:

Funny how 'everyone' wants to use all the old gear used on the records they love the sound of while ignoring the methods in which it was used...

One concept I had to learn when working on the lathe was 'close enough'. I work very hard to get both mechanical and electronic adjustments tight, but at a certain point you run into the tolerence of the systems. There is little appreciation of this rather wide tolerence when for example meters in the DAW display level to .01dB precision. If you can get frequency response to +/- 1dB and phase response within a couple of hash marks on the correlation meter you are doing pretty well.

[Bob Olhsson]

I've got a production project going where I'm using the old methods and mikes but modern transparent electronics and converters along with Pro Tools.

Best way to find out if my hunch is right!

[bobkatz]

Bob Olhsson wrote on Fri, 06 August 2004 19:21

I've got a production project going where I'm using the old methods and mikes but modern transparent electronics and converters along with Pro Tools. Best way to find out if my hunch is right!

Your hunch is right, Bob! As long as you have the right room and the right musicians.

[Alécio Costa - Brazil]

I get impressed with readouts at PAZ when listening to  Toto;s mindfields.
Sometimes you can listen to some minor crappy distortion due to L2 abuse and bassy tracks. But hey, the thing plays really  fine at crappy cheap stereo systems. And the 16-120hz area looks like a rollercoaster!!!

[Doug Van Sloun]

dcollins wrote on Fri, 06 August 2004 00:19

Of course, a far better way is by ear!  Flip the phase of one channel and sum to mono.  When the correct azimuth is found, anything panned to the center is canceled.  The lead vox should almost disappear, leaving only reverb, etc.

Right!  But you knew that I knew that  As I said, much easier and faster to just give a quick glance at the torch at the beginning and end of the song though.  No routing, panning etc. necessary.  Things do tend to drift, song to song, reel to reel.

Quote:

Relative to what?  The MRL tape?  The last master you played?  From track to track?

Why, the deck the tape was recorded on, of course.  That's what we're doing here is optimizing the playback deck to mimic the record deck.  See Rage Against the Machine "Renegades" for example.

[dcollins]

Doug Van Sloun wrote on Thu, 12 August 2004 19:41

Why, the deck the tape was recorded on, of course.  That's what we're doing here is optimizing the playback deck to mimic the record deck.  See Rage Against the Machine "Renegades" for example.

Is it off azimuth?

DC