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[Martin Schiff]

I'm curious as to what the major differences would be between a tube mic (like the Studio Project T3) and a clean preamp (like the SP VTB-1 with no tube dialed in) versus a clean mic (like the SP C1) and a tube preamp (like the SP VTB-1 with tube dialed in).

In other words, does the tube in the mic behave similarly to the tube in a preamp, or are they totally different animals?

-- Martin

[Shotgun]

Martin Schiff wrote on Wed, 04 August 2004 11:16

I'm curious as to what the major differences would be between a tube mic (like the Studio Project T3) and a clean preamp (like the SP VTB-1 with no tube dialed in) versus a clean mic (like the SP C1) and a tube preamp (like the SP VTB-1 with tube dialed in). In other words, does the tube in the mic behave similarly to the tube in a preamp, or are they totally different animals? -- Martin

The first important thing to consider, I think, is that sometimes people use the word "tube" too rigidly.  In your post you seem to be using "tube" and "clean" (by which I assume you mean "solid state") as words that almost mean ONE type of sound.

In reality, tube gear can be very clean.  Also, solid state gear can be very unclean, either in a plesant or not-so-plesant way.  The distinction is not at all as simple as some folks (notably gear manufacturers and purveyors) would have you believe.

The real answer to your question is that yes, the tube in a tube mic will behave in the same way as the tube(s) in a preamp insofar as they will operate the way they were designed to operate in the circuit in which they are placed.  

What most people find pleasing or desirable about tube-amplified audio is the distortion characteristics of the vacuum tube.  When a tube is overdriven it adds certain harmonics to a sound that our ears like.  Folks call this "warmth".  Sometimes warmth becomes fuzz even.  Point being, it's going to have the same electrical effect on the signal no matter where it is.  

But wait, I'm completely wrong
Ok, what I just said was that tubes all work the same.  Which they do.  But, you can NEVER say that "tube mic A + SS preamp B = SS mic C + tube preamp D" because there are just too many OTHER differences.  No tube mic will ever give you the same sound through a solid state preamp as a solid state mic will through a tube preamp.  Sure, you get "tube sound" either way, but there's no such thing as one "tube sound".  

First of all, no two mics are ever going to give you the same sound unless you buy really expensive matched pair mics.  You have to take into account the capsules, the rest of the electronics and, most importantly, the source.  

Next, there are a lots different types of tubes and millions of circuits in which to place each one.  The tubes in a preamp are going to sound different than the tubes in a mic because they're different tubes in a different circuit, even though they're doing the same basic function.

Your Real Answer
I have to ask why you're actually asking this question.  If you were just curious as to whether A+B was the same a C+D, then no, really it's not.  Not because tube mics are better or solid state preamps are better, but just because different circuits produce different sounds.  

Just keep in mind that there's no ONE TRUE TUBE sound and always trust your ears to tell you what's best.  Sometimes feeding a tube pre with a tube mic is.  Sometimes feeing a solid state pre with a solid state mic is best.  It's all about using your ears for the application at hand.  

Shotgun

[hargerst]

Martin,

you might also be interested in looking at this thread in the old ProSoundWeb forum:

http://recpit.prosoundweb.com/viewtopic.php?t=7774

It goes into a lot of detail about preamp design, by a lot of well known preamp designers.

[Martin Schiff]

Shotgun,

Thanks, that was just what I was looking for.

It was just a matter of curiosity. I understand that every mic and every pre have different characteristics and that you probably can't make a general statement about them.

My question was why you might choose to use a tube mic and a "wire with gain" type preamp, or a transparent mic and a "wire with color (i.e. tube)). I understand that there is no real answer. The answer is listen to the combinations and pick one that has the characteristics you are looking for with a particular recording source.

Harvey,

Thanks. I had previously read that thread, but it was good to review it (despite only understanding a small fraction of it [grin]).

-- Martin

[Stavross]

In the not to distant past (last Sunday A.D.) gear pimps realy started pushing mediocre tube mic's and pre's with the marketing ploy of tube=warmth or tube=that vintage sound. Or even the all the pros use tube mics.

This marketing strategy of throwing the phrase 'tube gear' around has trickled it's way down to the bottom feeder funboys such as myself to the point where customers begin telling me that they want to record on a tube mic. Even my boss (who handles mostly the business side) pointed out some suspiciously cheesy tube mics in a banjo center catalog saying that we needed one.

Tubes in general are going to have more character then a solid-state unit. I have had the pleasure of making acquaintances with an awful lot of characters in my life, and just like people, not all characteristics are good.

In summation some tube gear is wonderful, some is crap, the same applies to solid-state gear.

That and what Shotgun said x100

STAVROSS

[Martin Schiff]

Thanks Stavros, that was also very helpful.

Here's what Alan Hyatt of Studio Projects had to say about it. I asked the question comparing a C1 with VTB-1 using tube and T3 with VTB-1 with no tube.

-- Martin

First of all the T3 uses a 6072 tube. To me that tube is much smoother than
the 12AX7 that is used for the VTB1 to simply add distortion. I never really
cared for 12AX7's in tube mics. The Telefunken ELM250 uses the 6072 as well,
so at least we are in good company there.

Now you have the flexibility of the T3's 9 selectable patterns. This is very
useful when needing to open or close up the pattern for tighter control, and
that will affect the tone on the lower and upper ends, depending on how you
use the controlled patterns.

You most certainly can get a similar sound with the C1/VTB1 combination, but
only on the T3's center cardioid's setting. Then you still have the fact
that the T3 is a full time tube mic that uses an output transformer, and the
C1 is a solid state transistor coupled balanced output. These do have
different sounds and tones.

So these are the technical differences if you will.

Now my opinion is the T3 is a really sweet mic and well worth the $499.00
you pay for it. The great thing is you can own all three of them, the T3,
C1, and VTB1 for about $800.00...The same price of an older "good" C414.

Sorry for the marketing SPAM there, but the costs make it very appealing,
and you still get very good quality. Our mics are sold to many home studios,
but so many pros use it. Ted Perlman, Tony Sheridan (Santana), Jason Miles,
Simple Plan, 3 Doors Down, James Taylor has three, Jim Messina, Oceanway
Nashville, Julian King, Steve Nathan...should I go on? The point is big
people are making big hits with the SP line of mics. Good mikes used
correctly do sound good, no matter what the cost...

Alan Hyatt
PMI Audio Group
Joemeek   Studio Projects   Toft Audio   Stephen Paul Microphones
23775 Madison Street
Torrance,  CA  90505
toll free: 877-563-6335
e-mail: alan@pmiaudio.com